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Post by Chris on Jul 10, 2010 13:04:00 GMT -5
I pulled out the kit and a Offy and I was pondering these pics,    and I did notice that the conversion will be easy but, OK Russ Here we go!!!!, I noticed the engine is backwards!! 3 things show that, the Cam cover part that covers the timing chain is at the back of the car not in the front of the engine, The fuel pumps that feed off the back of the cam covers is in the middle of the car not at the back of the car/cam cover. Upon further investigation I was faced with where the engine connects to the transfer case for the 4 wd and the only place is the center of the car, I even checked the entry list for 1969 and it shows the car as 4wd Offy, so I can only assume the engine faces south not north!!!! Anyway I started this little project last night and expect to get the engine super detailed in the next few days, I had to strip it as it was out of a car I built 25 years ago and the rest of the 73 Eagle it came out of was destroyed in the 94 Northridge Eartquake...I knew I held onto it for a reason...Chris Ps. Thanks to Indydog for getting me straight on posting pics.... |
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Post by Chris on Jul 10, 2010 13:25:16 GMT -5
One more pic for the cam cover....  Chris  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2010 21:37:33 GMT -5
Chris,
I have spoken to Bob Clidinst about this car many times, and Bob swears up and down it was mounted front end first. Bob actualy walked around the real car after all....but photos don't lie though, so before I would tackle such a project, I'd call Ron McQueeny at the Speedway Photo shop to get a few more detail photos of this car. The Speedway Photo Shop may have dozens that show more detail and prove us all wrong or not. Best not to guess. Although, Offy's were wonderful beasts and could be mounted any way in a car.....and have been.
Best to you!!
Russ
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Post by scalecentral on Jul 11, 2010 19:43:21 GMT -5
When you talk to the speedway shop ask them why their online service isn't there any more. Of course it could have moved and I can't find it.
Nic
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Post by lance on Jul 11, 2010 21:38:36 GMT -5
This was a Gerhardt copy of the Lotus 56, the motor was mounted backwards as was the Plymouth V8 . The Lotus 64 also had its turbo ford backwards. Parnelli did have a Lotus 56 fitted with a turbo ford (also turned around), car #3 which did not qaulify. The motors were turned around because the gearbox and drive shafts were layed out in similar fashion to the 68 turbines. Lance
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Post by lance on Jul 11, 2010 22:34:33 GMT -5
I have been looking into this some more and now question if this car maybe is a Lotus after all. In Ferguson's Lotus book the caption for this photo calls it "a lotus 56 look-a-like" , in no photos does it appear with a Lotus badge on it . However in his book he does make mention of 2 Lotus 56's that were to be made available to Granatelli racing to carry non turbine engines in 69 but never say's much more about them as he concentrates mostly on the type 64's and his relationship with Andy. I have seen it listed as a Lotus and a lotus copy (Gerhardt) through the years but am not sure what to believe - again. Lance
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Post by Chris on Jul 11, 2010 23:03:53 GMT -5
Lance, Yes there is some confusion when it comes to the Gebhardt "Copy" as they were indeed listed as Lotus 56b 4wd Offy at Indy, I do have pics somewhere of those cars also. The only one to actually qualify for the 69 Indy 500 was the actual Lotus 56b car #40. I also have a picture of the Lotus cars number/build plate somewhere....Cars #57 and #20 and I think it was #52 were copies. In the articles I have read those cars were all crashed by the seasons end at Riverside. Due to the center location of the Ferguson 4wd transfer case and the fact that the turbine output shaft was in the front of engine, Granatelli with the advise of Chapman decided to locate the Offy backwards. In the book "They Call Me Mr500" almost at the end he says he had already invested over $20 million dollars in the Turbocar and did not want to spend more to re-design the drivetrain... Had they done so to the remaining Turbocar chassis I seriously doubt there would have been any around now to restore... Confusion Reins as too many confuse this car with the Gebhardt!!! |
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Post by Chris on Jul 11, 2010 23:20:14 GMT -5
OK one last very clear picture that the engine was installed backwards, note the cam covers and the fuel injection pump both at the "wrong" ends of the engine had it not been in backwards...  |
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Post by Patrick on Jul 12, 2010 1:21:31 GMT -5
Thanks for doing this car Chris! Now I don't have to I can enjoy yours as you "post your photos"! By the way...about the Dino...how many times did you sit in it?  ? Patrick |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2010 11:30:56 GMT -5
Awwww Patrick, you should build one too!!!!
I may give it a try myself......I just want to know how the thing was wired, plumbed and how the exhaust was done. I have always liked the Lotus 56's, that's why I have bought so damn many....as well tires from Norm Vebber. Throw the lousy kit "Goodyear" tires away!!!!
Chris......You are going to do a WIP on this beast, aren't you? Got your message and we'll talk about the 8/14 date. Looking forward to seeing you soon!
Best to you both!
Russ
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Post by Chris on Jul 12, 2010 12:16:29 GMT -5
Russ, the most obvious changes on the engine are the Intake and exhaust ports were switched to the opposite sides of the engine. Since there are no detail pics of the engine to transfer case I am going to assume the set up was without a gear box, but maybe with a clutch?? Well I am going to have to assume a few things... but it should look correct when done. Chris
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Post by Chris on Jul 12, 2010 12:49:55 GMT -5
WIP Day 2 I spent the day cutting the rearbody work on the Lotus 56, a tip re-inforce the sides with some strip styrene as the bodywork will break easily, I cut the nose open and seperated it from the main chassis. I used retoration pics of the Turbocar for proper body seams. I also did some work preping the engine by triming the exhaust ports off .  |
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Post by Chris on Jul 12, 2010 12:51:36 GMT -5
WIP Day 2 I also made the side of the rear "Ducktail" bodywork...What a pain, drawing it out ,measuring off assorted pics, scaling it and then cutting two matching parts out of .060 styrene...Chris
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Post by lance on Jul 12, 2010 16:08:43 GMT -5
Chris, thanks for your info on this car , you have cleared up the picture on it as well as the superwedge (plymouth powered car), well done. Lance
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Post by Chris on Jul 12, 2010 17:12:22 GMT -5
 WIP 3 some more work on the Ducktail and a NACA duct on the nose, now for some side ducts on the nose and some more engine work...No Problem Lance I will post a pic of the Plymouth V8 backwards in a lotus 56b not a Gebhardt.... |
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Post by illeagle10 on Jul 12, 2010 17:24:22 GMT -5
Chris, Your conversion is great so far! Can't wait to see how you tackle putting in the backward Plymouth. Keep us posted.
Jim
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Post by Chris on Jul 12, 2010 17:34:51 GMT -5
 I did not think the engine was backwards until I realize the exhausts were all coming from the front !!!! So they come off the engine and go forward and then up and back!!! This is a Lotus 56B the body work , what you can see is not a Gebhardt. One giveaway is all the Gebhardts had enclosed engine body work. This looks to be a test mule of a converted 56B...Neat built ups, and an interesting Gebhardt conversion, looks weird with all that space in the middle of the tub... no transfer case. |
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Post by Calvin on Jul 12, 2010 22:05:57 GMT -5
Hey Chris, Your WIP is Awesome!
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Post by Patrick on Jul 12, 2010 23:39:35 GMT -5
I concur.
Patrick
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Post by Chris on Jul 13, 2010 19:50:25 GMT -5
Thanks Guys, No Work Today as I went to be poked and prodded at the doctors, not good news, but more on that later, much later... How To Spot A Copy!!!  Looking at this car, for a long time, something bothered me, the shape and more... Looking through the smoke I noticed this is a Plymoth engine facing the right direction, next the shape of the nose bothered me it is too roundish and shaped much different than the Turbocar then I realized, This is a Gebhardt Lotus 56B Copy!! Note No front axles !! So That is it..... Chris |
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Post by indydog on Jul 13, 2010 21:34:59 GMT -5
Here's another shot of a Gerhardt Plymouth Chris. Not sure if it the same one, but it is a rear drive with the engine in the normal way.  |
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Post by racerbrown on Jul 13, 2010 22:14:29 GMT -5
this thread has it all!
lots of info, a wip, great photos.
what a classic!
duane
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Post by lance on Jul 13, 2010 22:44:07 GMT -5
The 20 car is a Lotus tub, in an attempt to make the superwedge faster , the radical body panels were removed for more conventional ones but this did not help much. I tried to post a photo of the Plymouth being installed in the tub but met with more failure so posted it on my website for now (I have not given up yet but am close). The photo shows it as a 4 wheel drive car as the front drive unit can be seen inside the front bulkheads and the motor appears to be going in backwards to the best I can tell. Another diference that helps deferentiating a Lotus from a Gerhardt is that the Gerhardt ran radius rods on the rear and the Lotus did not, also the two cars ran different front upper a-arms on the front suspension. At Indy the 57 car ran an offy which was switched out for the plymouth later in the season and actually won a race. Lance
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Post by Chris on Jul 13, 2010 23:20:15 GMT -5
 here is a pic of the Gebhardt at indy with an Offy and full body work. The # 40 Lotus tub was converted to Plymouyh power and also went on to win a race on a road course in 4wd... OK everybody got these cars all straight now? ? Think about it Granatelli had the Lotus cars, the Gebhardts, the Superwedge, Tried a Lotus 64? and won Indy with the Brawner Hawk all in the 69 season, no wonder he felt USAC had basically banned HIM after that year .... |
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Post by Chris on Jul 19, 2010 12:53:08 GMT -5
MORE PROGRESS, I put the body aside this weekend and got going on the Offy, I intended the focal point of this build to be the engine, so I will tell you whats up,    first i cleaned up the Cam covers and drilled for the 10 bolts per cover painted semi gloss black and added the bolts, on to the block again more clean up and 1 coat of Mica Silver followed by 3 coasts of Light Gunmetal drilled and installed the 6 Allen head cap bolts on the front cover added the side cover and installed 4 bolts and washers...I cut the intake and plenum apart drilled for the throttle shaft, fuel injectors, and a hole for the line to the pop off valve. Also 5 Allen cap head bolts on the base of intake to hold it to the block. installed the throttle shaft.. back to the block I added R&D unique Spark plugs and made boots with Heat shrink tubing, find a similar size metal tubing and slowly shrink the tubing over a flame until just right, next up the intake tubing and clamps like I mentioned in Foyt 77 wip thread...  here are the clamps, ( I got a assortment of sizes and colors of shrink tubing at www.allelectronics.com for about $10) shunken tubing and parts more tomorrow.... |
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Post by illeagle10 on Jul 19, 2010 14:32:05 GMT -5
Hang on a minute.....there....so manny wedges, I thought I got a wedgy!! Wow that's some great detail work Chris!!! Where are you going to find a guy that small to actually drive it when it's finished? I think it just might start up if you try.
Jim
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Post by Patrick on Jul 19, 2010 19:55:19 GMT -5
Chris,
I love the throttle linkage work. It's going to look tasty!
Patrick
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Post by Art Laski on Jul 19, 2010 20:01:14 GMT -5
Great start on that engine Chris. I'm going to enjoy following along!
-Art
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Post by Chris on Jul 20, 2010 14:59:03 GMT -5
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Post by indy on Jul 20, 2010 17:18:13 GMT -5
Great work and yes, thorough research is invaluable!!
Jordan
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Pro Tech | MAD | Scale Motorsport
Thanks Guys, here is last nites work, I addd the intake runner tubes and hose clamps, Geeeeeze not as easy as the results look!!!, the distributor, put onthe Cam covers and scratchbuilt a water pump and the water inlets that go on top of the intake manifold.... I think you can now tell the importance of good research and even drawings, I learned a lot about the Offy engine I didnt know, I guess the saying "You never stop Learning" applies.... 
