We need a good discusion

[IndyCarModels]

Since I have started building 1:43 cars, I am amazed at the costs.
Now for my topic. We have great builders on this forum and many cars are made for 1:25 & 1:18. Why no 1:43? I would think there would be a market for this, Especially the Indy cars for the last few years. The only builder that I know of is Formula Models in England. Is there anyone else who would take this job on. Just saying!!!!
Terry

[clm1545]

Well Terry, it has seemed, to me, that there was more available in 1/43 than 1/25. The costs to produce 1/43 are about the same as the larger scales, I would think. There has not been a lot of interest in the latest Indy cars no matter what the scale.
Like many of the "higher mileage" guys, I grew up with the AMT kits, which were 1/25. that's what I'm used to. I am not a scale snob. I enjoy quality work in any scale, but I am more comfortable with the level of detail I can get with 1/25.
My eyes are not as good as they were 35 years ago, and my fingers are not as nimble. Indycar builders are a small group. and I really don't see the smaller scales gaining any traction unless some if the foreign kit producers get involved.
For me, at least, it's like the 3 bears,
1/18 too big
1/43 too small
1/25 just right

Craig

[IndyCarModels]

Dec 22, 2016 20:02:21 GMT -5 clm1545 said:

Well Terry, it has seemed, to me, that there was more available in 1/43 than 1/25. The costs to produce 1/43 are about the same as the larger scales, I would think. There has not been a lot of interest in the latest Indy cars no matter what the scale.
Like many of the "higher mileage" guys, I grew up with the AMT kits, which were 1/25. that's what I'm used to. I am not a scale snob. I enjoy quality work in any scale, but I am more comfortable with the level of detail I can get with 1/25.
My eyes are not as good as they were 35 years ago, and my fingers are not as nimble. Indycar builders are a small group. and I really don't see the smaller scales gaining any traction unless some if the foreign kit producers get involved.
For me, at least, it's like the 3 bears,
1/18 too big
1/43 too small
1/25 just right

Craig

Craig, I agree with you. I started out with the old Monogram Kurtis roadster and thru the AMT series. The reason I like 1:43 is the availabilty of cars but they seem to stop with the DW12. Maybe the desire to build model Indy Cars is dying out. I hope not but the youth of today (except Calvin) are into computers, games etc.

[Deleted]

Let me start by saying I built my first car kit in 1968 or 1969 and it was in a smaller scale. A Willy's gasser with a straight axle. It was a gift for finishing a Catholic catechism class. Two halfs split right down the middle, a blower hanging out of the hood, Slotted mags and slicks. A dragger (which I was really into at the time)

my brother built models, he is nine years older than I

As I got older I built, mostly Monogram. I was big on the Kustom Kar shows. Hot Wheels, etc. I lived in America, so the scale was 1/24, 1/25 with some goody Lindberg scales thrown in. (ships)

I was at the Indianapolis Flower and Patio show of all places, in 1974 and this was just prior to Christmas. They had the a table with the AMT Penske McLaren kit that you could make either Mike Hiss or Gary Bettenhausen. I still get that feeling when I see a kit I want..... it was a HUGE deal. I had met Gary, He was big time.

I must have built a dozen of these kits, along with the AMT Eagles. It didn't matter if there were no decals. This is when I started masking and using spray paint. Thermo=King, Spirit of American Enterprise, American Kids Racer, I loved these kits and still do. They are horrible in scale and shape as we will find out much later but I knew then they were not right.

In the early 90's I was with a friend who had some pre built SMTS roadsters. These were cool, so I figured out where the heck to buy them (http://www.gasolinealleyantiques.com/kits/index.htm) this was all done through the US Mail. What a hassle, and first time ever dealing with photo etch. I built a Lola T-90 and a Lotus type 38. I also bought a Watson Roadster which could be built in a variety of subjects. I found them difficult to build and super frail. The ultra small white metal parts were deformed and it took a ton of work. They were beautiful when finished well, but even at that young age I was using magnification which I didn't like. Were not even getting into the brittle parts being so small you had to build fixtures to hold them in order to attempt a correction.

When Monogram released the 1/24 Indycar I got back into building. This was in the early 90's and I have been building Indycars ever since. When AMT released the 1/25 scale cars I thought these were much better kits (!) and built all those as well. The decals were so bad it sent me on a quest to find something better.

I went to my first model car show, swap meet, whatever you call it. Saw what I thought were some pretty deranged people, adults, going gaga over promos. I still remember my girlfriend at the time just rolling her eyes at a 40 year old guy who was actually giddy about finding a Ford Thunderbird promo he must have been looking for a long time. At this show I met Bill Jorgensen and deducted he lived about three blocks from Me. I also met Fred Cady.

This opened up a whole new chapter in building for me. It took some coaching and help from Bill, who became a friend and a guy whom I did a lot of activities with.

I have a degree in Injection Mold Tooling and made my living working in Mold shops.

Bill was coaching "this guy" on how to produce molds. He had nothing but good things to say about "this guy" and the quality of work he was putting out in the form of masters. "this guy" turned out to be Lance Sellers, whom I got to meet after hearing about him for over a year. Lance turned out to be a very nice guy, and a real Indycar guy just like myself. After a couple of months I took Wayne Leary over to meet Lance because he had some really cool stuff in his house. (Wayne had a major woody for a Pepsi Challenger)

I never looked back and jumped back into this hobby with both feet. I love open wheel cars having been born and raised about 12 blocks from IMS. I have been around it my entire life. This is just the scale that is where "it is at" and this is a golden era in the form of subjects. I never dreamed it could happen, but thanks to Bill, Lance now Kevin, Rick and now Mike and Calvin and a tip of the hat to the JJano guy over at the other forum, his 1/25 T-90 was nothing short of jaw dropping. That thing still blows me away, he is a MASTER model builder.I don't even screw around with anything other than sportscars (well, I have kind of fallen into the Studio27, Model Factory Hiro trance)

1/43 is the scale of Europe. I know Gordon Schroder had a huge collection, as does Arie Luyendyk. I personally think they are very nice but rather Mickey Mouse to build, and I have a life time of building to the 1/25 scale, so I am not going to change.

what ever makes you happy, that's my motto. I do find it kind of strange always asking if something is going to be done in 1/43rd scale. Being dissapointed producing 1/25 kits is old hat to these guys, they are not going to build 1/43 kits.

If it ever gets easy to post photo's on this site and it does not feel like work, I can post pictures. I am into this hobby to impress no one. This is my enjoyment, a very singular hobby which can be shared with very few.

Lance is the (expletive deleted)! Kevin is right there with him!

Merry Christmas, keep building.

[Art Laski]

Love the back story, Hubie. You've fallen in with a very talented group! To date in my short modeling career, I don't have a lot of Indy cars to show, but I also prefer the 1/24-25th scales. You can add a lot of detail if you wish, or you can also leave it off and the don't look amiss. But I'll build any scale if the subject is what I'm after.

[mrindy77]

I got turned on to 1/43 scale around 1983 or so. I worked at model car and slot car hobby shop called Motorsports Miniatures. We stocked many Starter, Provence Moulage and Tenariv kits. I found building them very enjoyable and eventually turned it into a full time job. There are many 43rd kits now days that would put larger scale counter parts to shame in detail and parts count. I used to attend the Strictly 43rd show in Chicago for many years selling my handbuilts. It was a great time for 3rd scale. At some point the market became flooded with 43rd diecast some of which is very nice for the price point. Alas all great things eventually come to an end most of my customers have either passed away or have moved on to other hobbies. I still enjoy building 43rd as there is so much more available in that scale there is really no comparison. I primarily build Indy, Can Am and Bugattis in 43rd and I would guess I have at least a 100 or so unbuilt kits that I have amassed over the years. I call it my retirement fund...LOL.

[sandysixtysfan]

I got hooked on 1/43 kits many years ago. They're fun to build and it was the only way to get a good collection of Can Am, Indy and my catch all category- Just Cool Cars such as Scarabs, Ford GTs and so on.

Sandy

[vintagerpm]

I got into 1/43 back in the '90s when I discovered I could build entire Can-Am grids in that scale. Since then I've built close to 30 kits in that scale (not the fastest builder and got hooked on armor models a few years ago). Few open-wheelers, though - 2 Indy, 1 F1, & 1 F5000. I do have 60-70 unbuilt 1/43 kits, mostly Can-Am, but more open-wheelers and a slew of Porsche 917s (1 of each body style).

But after years of not building 1/24 plastic car kits, I'm now trying to build more of those. :-)

Mike

[ohnothimagen]

Hubie, I loved reading your story as it reminds me a lot of my own. I started building back in the 60s, but then I was more into airplanes. My first car kits were the 1/24 - 1/25 Monogram sports cars. I seem to recall the McLaren-Elva might have been my first, I had a Hussein, and of course the Chaparral 2. Actually pieces from that last one and a later 2-E (IMC maybe) found their way into the hands of a fellow board member here. I also built a few IMC Ford-GT cars (still have an un-built MK-IV).

My first open wheel cars (not counting the Lotus-Ford Indy cars my dad built for me and my brother) were the MPC Eagles and Lotus Turbine. Like Hubie, I don't know how many AMT Indycars I bought and built, but that was when I too started messing around with customizing the builds into something different. Either different paint schemes, decals, or in some cases fabricating my own bodywork from (of all things) index cards, my builds started taking a different direction. Then jobs, first marriage, and life got in the way and building became a part of the past.

My first 1:43 kit was an SMTS Eagle-Weslake. I had no experience with metal, epoxy, etc. but it came out okay. I also got a 1:43 metal 1962 F-1 Porsche that remains unfinished, and then my one and only 1:43 resin kit, a Toyota-Eagle MKIII. What I liked most about the scale was the room they allowed me to have for display. But I soon found it easier to just buy pre-built cars.

Enter another long period of no model building and then suddenly I find this board. Looking at the images here from the true artists got me inspired again. Out came one of two reissued MPC Eagle kits I bought back in the 90's and I began working to transform it to a high-wing 1969 F-A version. Patrick gave some great advice along the way, Gary did some fantastic custom decals, Kevin's semi-kit engine and aero parts made the final product, and a dear recently departed friend Joe Zumsteg provided both moral support and some emergency paint service when I was ready to toss the whole thing.

After spending more than a year and a half on this project, it taught me patience can be rewarded with a good outcome but reminded me of all those one-off projects I dashed through years ago. It also made me realize that the eyes and nerves of a 60-something are not what I remember from builds from my youth.

Not dismayed, I have one of Lance's '69 Indy Eagle semi-kits and one of Kevin's '71 Eagles in various stages of development and just like back in the day I am trying to put my own spin on them. And there still is that IMC MK-IV in a back corner of the closet.

Sorry for the ramble.

Rex

[quattro]

Gents.

Fascinating stuff.

A European perspective maybe.

I was a tad annoyed when 1/43rd came to the fore over here in the early 80s.

I soon realised that collecting specific subjects was going to be possible in 43rd

which was never going to happen with the 20th and 24th scale stuff we had knocking about then.

Just to throw it into the ring I always saw 32nd as a decent scale to work in.

Slot car bashing became my thing.

We hardly ever saw any of the 25th scale material you were all into.

But I saw what 43rd was capable of covering. And eventually it did.

Example. One particular driver collection I have. From F Renault to F2 to Can Am to  F1 to Sports prototypes to saloon cars to Rally Cars to

Andros Trophy cars to Paris Dakar machinery. All catered to by 43rd and the mass of manufacturers.

Tameo, HIFI, Formula Models, Ampersand and a few others got into doing some wonderful Indycar and F5000 material.

But this was a labour of love and on the crest of the early nineties popularity of Indycar racing.

And we all went out a picked up a few.

But somehow in my head the 1/25th material was always a better option for a decent kit and finished product.

And if I want to mark out a special race winning or championship winning driver from there I will and have got hold of the 1.25th version.

To me it is synonymous with the USA and Indy. 25th means American.

I asked the question a while ago. Alonso went to Indy with a Honda in the back. Ebbro were doing the Mclarens of that year

because of Honda. It'll always sell in Japan. But if he had won that race would you all go out and buy a decent 1/20th kit of the car?

They would not have done it in 24th.....

43rd is now getting silly in its pricing here, especially since so much is farmed out to China

(and Spark are employing strategy that basically stops the smaller kit manufacturer from

putting stuff out there. The minute they announce something, Spark announce they will do it, and then its five years of waiting.

 A topic for another time).

These 'garagistas' are now gravitating to 1/20th limited edition runs of various cars never before produced.

There are a couple I know that are now casting stuff in 24th.........

I think 25th has to go on. Good scale. Sometimes cheaper than a 43rd, I mean I never thought I would buy a 1/18th, but it was 30 quid cheaper than the 43rd model!! Sidetracked. Sorry.

You wanna do a drivers multi disciplined career then go 43rd and start saving.

You want to do Indycars? I would stick to 25th if you can. One car, many options at present.

I hope that someone out there starts looking at some way of 3D printing some quality kits so we can fill in the 'holes' from the past.

I do not see a plastic kit manufacturer picking up on Indy, and what the much admired garage bands amongst the forums membership do is fantastic but I feel a labour of love, and love can wain from time to time.

It is a tough one this and I probably muddied the waters, but be wary of 1/43rd. What I considered a solution is now becoming a problem

in terms of cost.

Are there any American kit producers who can be lobbied to put stuff out there in 25th or are the die cast lot sitting on an exclusivity deal?

[djflyer]

In my search through the vendors on Shapeways I have come across several that are offering 3D printed Indycars and other OWR as well. One vendor, SooS' 3D Prints, has several interesting subjects in 43rd as well as the '01-'7 IRL Dallara in 25th scale. I contacted him about scaling-up some of his pieces to 25th, which he has been working on. The '78 Lola T500 and B02 are both high on my list of desired subjects. If he can get them to the $80-100 range (similar to resin kits) I believe they would sell.

[IndyCarModels]

I'm the one that started this whole 3D Indy Cars with SooS.  I have worked well with him and he will make just about anything for me.

[quattro]

Strait on there to have a look. Amused to see an Indycar at 1/32nd. Its a nice scale to work in and paint up.

Its all down to the pricing isn't it?

These by SooS and the 2002-05 Lola seem OK but I saw a 2018 43rd on one site at 80 dollars.

Again, for that money I would take the bigger scale.

And then there is the preference of just the body and sourcing the suspension and tires or all in one hit off the printer.

What do we prefer to work with and how? Guess they can be printed separately.

Didn't mean to side track the discussion, and there is no point duplicating what the masters of the resin are doing.

I don't think the quality of finish is there yet.

But I think at some point this 3D lark will present opportunities for the collector that may never have been considered.

Its the one manufacturing process where machine time and quantity of material used dictates the cost so it may mean that 43rd

will be cheaper than he bigger stuff in time. But I suspect most of the long time builders will still go for the 25th scaled product.

[IndyCarModels]

Feb 14, 2019 5:58:09 GMT -5 quattro said:

Strait on there to have a look. Amused to see an Indycar at 1/32nd. Its a nice scale to work in and paint up.

Its all down to the pricing isn't it?

These by SooS and the 2002-05 Lola seem OK but I saw a 2018 43rd on one site at 80 dollars.

Again, for that money I would take the bigger scale.

And then there is the preference of just the body and sourcing the suspension and tires or all in one hit off the printer.

What do we prefer to work with and how? Guess they can be printed separately.

Didn't mean to side track the discussion, and there is no point duplicating what the masters of the resin are doing.

I don't think the quality of finish is there yet.

But I think at some point this 3D lark will present opportunities for the collector that may never have been considered.

Its the one manufacturing process where machine time and quantity of material used dictates the cost so it may mean that 43rd

will be cheaper than he bigger stuff in time. But I suspect most of the long time builders will still go for the 25th scaled product.

[IndyCarModels]

We looked at 1/25 scale and found the price too expensive. However, the cars could be produced in different parts but again that drives the price up.

[mrindy77]

I'm still not a big fan of the 3D printed parts. Everything I've purchased from Shapeways in the way of parts just does not cut it for me. The quality for the price is just not there yet.
I think the merit in 3D parts lies in making a master part which could than be massaged/tweaked and then cast in resin.

[Gary Davis]

Feb 16, 2019 9:27:56 GMT -5 mrindy77 said:

I'm still not a big fan of the 3D printed parts. Everything I've purchased from Shapeways in the way of parts just does not cut it for me. The quality for the price is just not there yet.
I think the merit in 3D parts lies in making a master part which could than be massaged/tweaked and then cast in resin.

That is my same thought Mrindy. Print the part...make it correct and use that piece as the Master to make a mold of. I've been waiting for the GOOD printers to come down in price. I haven't checked on them in a while as I don't know where they are in price today.

[vintagerpm]

Feb 16, 2019 9:27:56 GMT -5 mrindy77 said:

I think the merit in 3D parts lies in making a master part which could than be massaged/tweaked and then cast in resin.

I believe this is what a good number of the resin & metal figure companies do now.

Mike