Watson Chassis details

[Deleted]

I don't know if I've missed it and it's already old information, but I need some very basic info. What diameter tubing was used for the main for/aft members on most Watson Roadster chassis? I'm building a silver soldered stainless frame for display alongside of a finished Etzel kit. I plan on it having only the most basic details added. I'd like to put in the engine and some running gear. I can make most of the components, but I wonder if the engine resin casting included in the Etzel Kuzma would work. Anybody know? Those tubing measurements are the most important thing, though, to get the project moving. Does anybody know if the AMT version chassis is basically correct as an indication of crossmembers and such? I know it fits into the body shell, if IT'S right. If you find my mind wandering around, please post here. Clearly, I've lost it...

[lance]

Contact Walt (Oldphotos), He has the Clidinst drawings that include a sheet with the Watson frame and can scale it to 1/25th.

[Deleted]

Thank you, Lance. Will do.

[Deleted]

OK, quick post to ask a question and determine my immediate modeling future!

I've begun an Etzel '60 roadster. I want to paint it in a 'typical' paint pattern, but I do not want to do a specific car. I want to paint it in such a way as to represent what was typical; no numbers or sponsor graphics. It will be displayed in a glass case with a chassis on stands next to it, museum style. This chassis will be built from one of two materials, and that's the rub. I can build it from silver soldered stainless and leave it 'naked'. The stainless polishes up beautifully. My intention is to install a resin engine, fabricate and install front and rear suspension, brake discs and calipers, Dzus fastener plates, steering detail (I'm considering a working steering box with the correct ratio; probably watch/ clock movement parts), and maybe a firewall, a fuel tank, and the seat. So, comments on all of this are welcome. In fact, I'm fervently asking for them. Should I fabricate the chassis from stainless and polish it? or should I paint it in a typical color? If so, what color? If I am to paint it, I'll fab it from brass, which works a little more easily. Easy is not what I'm about, but I just want to hear from those I respect in Indy car modeling. Thanks in advance for your comments. They are VERY important to me, so tell me if I'm on to something or just ON something...

[mrindy77]

I have always felt that painting and shading/shadowing using different colors produces a much more realistic looking replica. I have made scratch built frames from evergreen and simulated welds using silver paint at the joints and heat shading the area with metalizers. However impressive a stainless frame may be it will look just that...a stainless frame. Even a newly welded frame has different hues/colors on its metal surfaces as areas oxidize differently. I guess this hearkens back to my military modeling days. Yes..brass wil be easier but making it look real is the challenge.

[gwstexas]

Just a thought: I don't believe any Watson roadster ever had an unpainted frame. Most either used the body color or one of the major trim colors. Even when the cars were under construction, the frames would never have been polished. I would say paint it.
Best,
Gary

[Deleted]

Thanks for your input. I'm still torn on this. It's only natural for any modeler, myself included, to go for absolute scale. I have, however seen very fine models finished 'unprototypically'. In viewing them, I don't suspend my disbelief and internally rationalize why they'd actually finish one that way. I wouldn't try to represent it as an unpainted chassis. It would be far to pretty for that. I'm just spitballing here. The vote so far is 2 for painting, 0 for polishing. Please keep them comments coming.

[clm1545]

Unless you want a fresh chassis, no suspension, plumbing, etc, it will be more accurate painted IMO. They were painted before any systems were installed.
My $.02

[indy]

Bare metal would look more impressive to me. Modeling is never 100% accurate and the builder always has the freedom to do their build the way they want.

Jordan

[Deleted]

Well, That's two for painting and one for polishing. Please keep the comments coming. Maybe I should do a 'sample section' of nothing in particular, polish it, and post it. Keep in mind that the stainless wouldn't necessarily have to be polished. I could blast it with aluminum oxide and give it a lovely bare steel look. (though it would be tough to keep it nice during assembly)

[clm1545]

I agree with Jordan. It's your project, do whatever you want. If you are happy with it, that's all that should matter.

[indy]

I added a poll to the top of the thread - that might be an easier way to get more votes. If you don't want it, LMK and I can remove easier than adding it.

Jordan

[alterrenner]

The family would get tickets for the Big Auto Show in Portland each year from my Uncle, so as a child, I went to a lot of car shows.
Of all those displays I saw, the one that was the most vivid was a chrome-plated rolling chassis shown next to the regular cars from whatever the manufacturer was! Amongst the sea of carpet and paint was that chrome chassis. It still pops in my mind all these decades later!
You are going to display your chassis alongside of your Watson, so for the most impact, I would go with the polished and gleaming un-painted frame.
My two cents....
--Frank

[hurtubise56]

Painted would be my choice. To me, a polished frame would look more like a salesman's sample. JMO!

Brian

[bobbyc]

I vote for painted. I think it would look neat. I also think it should be white, as it's easier to see cracks in a white chassis.

[racerbrown]

Feb 28, 2016 20:27:10 GMT -5 bobbyc said:

I vote for painted. I think it would look neat. I also think it should be white, as it's easier to see cracks in a white chassis.

and we know bob cracked a few in his day!
duane

[Deleted]

Jordan,
Thanks for the polling insert. (I was going to say thanks for inserting the poll. It just didn't sound quite right...)
I'm hoping to get ten voters. We'll see.

[Deleted]

OK, I've finally restarted this project. The side frame upper and lower front to rear rails are done, and the upright tubing has been cut to length, fish mouthed, and soldered in place. Geez, it is difficult to bend thin wall stainless tubing (.O70 dia.) without kinking it, but I got it done with sore fingers. I'll post photos when I figure out Photobucket again.

But I have a question or two. I'm doing a 'parallel' frame, which was in use from 1959 to 1961, and though I know I can use the Etzel roadster to do a one of a few different versions for the display, I wonder if this is the best use of the Etzel. What I'd like to know is if the AMT thing is decent enough and if it can be modded to be a '59-'61 car. No internal components will be in it. Also, which roadster does the Etzel most closely replicate with not too much rework, and if mods are necessary, what are they? Another also, as asked before, what is the best resin engine to use? I have the Kuzma from Etzel, but I don't want to deprive the Kuz of it. Lots of questions, I know, but I want to do this right. If I make a model and then find out later that I've gotten something wrong it drives me nuts unless and until I redo it.

[bobbyc]

I know it's too late for the tube bending, but a trick to prevent crimping is to slide a slightly smaller diameter rod into the tubing when you make your bends. Regarding the chassis- they should be virtually identical from 1959 through 1961, at least. Keep in mind, though, that constant small modifications were made on a lot of race cars for different shock and suspension mounting, extra cross bracing, etc. Sometimes more major mods would be done, such as changing from parallel torsion bars to cross bars, etc., but I doubt if the Watson frames that you're replicating were subject to any major revisions. I could be wrong, though, and would defer to the guys that are into the more esoteric areas of chassis building, finding plans and such.

[Deleted]

Thanks, Bobby. Yes indeed, my research shows that no two Watsons were even BUILT exactly the same. They made 'rolling changes' all the time. Now add to that the modifications made by individual teams, and you can really only get just so accurate. I bent the stainless by slipping it into one of those outside springy type benders and a lot of checking and shifting. I thought about inserting a wire, but wasn't sure I'd be able to get it out. An old fabricating method on full size racecars was to pack the tube with sand and then heat it. I've seen this work...sometimes..

Anyhow, my major quest is sourcing an appropriate motor. The plastic kit ones will not do.I thought someone here made one in resin.

[Chris]

There are several Resin engines available check with Indycals.net and see if Michael has one that would be right.. Chris

[oldphotos]

Indycals engine is the Turbo engine which is only 169 C.I motor which is smaller than the 255/270 Offy used in the roadsters.
American Racing Miniatures were selling the Etzel Offy motor as a separate kit. Before they bought the rights to almost all of Chris Etzel's products, Before that Replicas & Miniatures Company Of Maryland had the Offy Engine kit for sale. You might try and find one of these kits.

Oldphotos
Walt

[oldphotos]

Here is a list of the main engines Offenhauser made and there uses

97 cu in (1.59 L) - to meet the displacement rule in many midget series
220 cu in (3.6 L) - displacement rule in AAA (later USAC) sprint cars
270 cu in (4.4 L) - displacement rule for the Indianapolis 500 under AAA rules
255 cu in (4.18 L) - for Indianapolis (during the 1930s fuel consumption rules)
252 cu in (4.13 L) - displacement rule for Indianapolis under USAC rules
168 cu in (2.75 L) - displacement rule for turbocharged engines at Indianapolis (to 1968)
159 cu in (2.61 L) - displacement rule for turbocharged engines at Indianapolis (1969 and later)

The 270, 255 and 252 were basically the same block with different pistons and rods to change the displacement
The 168 and 159 are smaller version of the other Offys but Turbocharged or supercharged.

Oldphotos
Walt

[oldphotos]

Painted vs unpainted, Bill Akin who owns 4 Indy Roadster 1 Kurtis and 3 Quinn Epperly's has won the Pebble Beach Concourse event I think 3 times with his Roadsters and his cars are just as raced if it was chromed on race day it's chrome on his cars, so Not much chrome on any roadster it was painted and polished.
But It's your model so DO IT THE WAY YOU WANT TO!

oldphotos
Walt

[Deleted]

Thanks for the help, guys. I'll check it all out.

[Deleted]

I promise pics are coming! I've got the Watson chassis well on its way. The frame fore and aft upper and lower rails and uprights have been soldered together along with temporary crossmembers to get the alighment and sizing right, and the torsion tubes are next. Getting them accurately soldered together has been occupying my thoughts for a week now. But I still need help; not the kind my wife thinks, but help.

I plan on spending just as much time as it will take to get it right, including Dzus fastener plates and aluminum firewall. The dash will be there as well, with holes cut for the instruments, one of which I intend to turn on the lathe and install. Ok you ask, what's this all about then?

I am still looking for a proper and accurate Offy to install in the frame. ARM, of course, no longer offers them- or anything, come to think of it. Theirs is, from what I've been able to tell, the only accurate representation to date. Does anyone have one they'd be willing to sell? I've been through the AMT and Mono kits, and Yeesh. I'm about to do something some may find offensive.

I have an Etzel Kuzma, and I built the engine some time ago, though the rest of the project lies waiting. I have purchased a second Kuzma kit on ebites, and you know what I'm thinking. I could steal its engine and close the engine bay up, turning it into a 'curbside' model, but I hate to actually subtract detail from such a wonderful model racecar. What I'd do if I could find reference, is to install some other engine, like a flathead Ford or something. I am asking if anyone has seen a Kuzma-it has to be a Kuzma- like the Etzel one with a v8 powerplant. I won't do it without reference. I have heard that it was done, but can find no evidence. Help me save an Etzel Kuzma kit!