1/20th Scale McLaren M25

[pje]

I’ve been interested in this one off car for a while and tried to collect some photos of it. I was recently reminded of it on another board and did another search where I found these two engine photos. Since Calvin at Classic Racing Resins has done the proper high induction engine cover, the only thing stopping me from building a model of this car in 1/20th scale is the engine itself.
Now, F5000 used 5 liter engines. I have a 7 liter Chevy engine from the MPC McLaren M8D. I am no expert on these engines. Were the basic external dimensions of the 7 liter McLaren modified engine close enough that I could use the block to make an acceptable 5 liter engine? The only other Chevy engine that I can think of in 1/20th scale would be the 1993 Lindberg Camaro.
If anyone has and thoughts, feedback or photos that they would like to share I would be very interested.

Paul Erlendson

[indy]

Chevy used the LT1 from the Corvette (300hp) and put it into the newly redesigned Camaro but with only 275hp. You might want to look up pics of the 1993 Camaro's V8 before buying the Lindberg kit. Personally, I do not think the LT1 looks much like the Chevy V8's of the 60s/70s but I am far from an expert on the subject.

Jordan

[Calvin]

I know I have some big blocks laying around but that type of valve cover would be tricky to find?

[indy]

Found some other 1/20 Chevy options on eBay. Some look to have V8s and others I couldn't tell.

MPC offered several Vettes in 1/20 like the '68 Stingray, 70's Laser Vette, '79 Turbo Vette, Class Act, and probably others. Monogram offered the 1982 Vette in 1/20. Lingberg offered a 1/20 Vega Voomer.

HTH
Jordan

[clm1545]

The small block, and big block Chevy engines have very little in common, Paul. Jordan is on the right track. Calvin, and his dad are experts on those engines.

[Calvin]

Apr 7, 2015 10:27:36 GMT -5 clm1545 said:

The small block, and big block Chevy engines have very little in common, Paul.

Gosh Craig! You're being too anel....this is just model building.

Apr 7, 2015 10:27:36 GMT -5 clm1545 said:

Calvin, and his dad are experts on those engines.

in our own minds....

[pje]

I appreciate your feedback guys. From what I can see of the 1/20th scale kits there doesn’t seem to be an engine that would be close to the Chevy small block that was used for this car. Looking back at Kevin’s Lola T332 can anyone tell me where he got his 1/25th scale block as his master? If I can get a hold of the proper block, even in 1/25th scale, I can maybe get into semi-scratch engine building. Patrick has certainly shown us that it can be done.

Paul Erlendson

[smbrm]

Paul

There should be lots of Chevrolet small block 1/25 scale options to start from. Have you considered the Revell parts Pack Chevrolet 283? It's a little small for 1/24 scale, however. Monogram stock cars should be small block 1/24. Problem with 1/24 &1/25 may be sourcing a scale car, although not impossible as some have suggested. There was a 1/24 Dome Zero RL that in one variant had a good 1/24 scale DFV engine. It's gearbox, I believe is a type TL-200, a rarely used Hewland. Union/Heller had some Cosworths and potentially appropriate gearboxes in their 1/24 scale F1 kits.

Cheers

Stephen

[Patrick]

Paul,
I'm so excited about your project! Scratching the 5 liter block from the 427 block is a course that I'd take if I couldn't get a 305 in 1/20. I'm going to post the few photos I have of this interesting F5000 car for you. I believe someone said it was turned into an M23 F1 car for sale-ability reasons. If so that's such a crime (to me at least) as we loose history because of someone's greed...first up is Shell Sport 1976...long scoop and long nose...

again same place and date...radiator shrouds are the longer type similar to F1 cars...

sane again but note the front wing's angle...

my photo notes say this is 1977 and not '76!

here's the restored car with incorrect nose, but I do think the original did run with the F1 style engine scoop!

again the restored version...this is the exact reason I use only period photos for modeling a particular car, but most people wouldn't know anyway...you know me! Even I don't do 100% recreations cuz I'm lazy, but that doesn't mean I don't know what's correct! Here's mine...notice I have the wrong engine shrouds, incorrectly shaped engine cover, cockpit shroud should be more of the F1 style and not an AMT Indy car style, and the front wings are not angled as on the prototype (it looked too dorky for me!)...



Paul If I can confuse things any better for yo just ask! Have fun and take liberties!

Patrick

PS...If a 1/12 SB Chevy comes my way I'm going to make this F5000 car in 1/12 using a M23 F1 car...


the car raced Down Under. Yes, I am one sick cat!

[Calvin]

Apr 8, 2015 22:06:14 GMT -5 Patrick said:

Off topic but it really bugs me....does anyone know what is Hexagon?

[Calvin]

Very interesting stuff Patrick - you sure know alot!

[pje]

Apr 8, 2015 22:59:41 GMT -5 Calvin said:

Apr 8, 2015 22:06:14 GMT -5 Patrick said:

Off topic but it really bugs me....does anyone know what is Hexagon?

Think it was this Calvin:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldie_Hexagon_Racing

Patrick, you're the man! Don't you have the perfect kit to do this in 1/24th scale?

I usually agree with you and want to do a car as it was raced or qualified. Or with me a lot, pre-season testing.

In the case of this particular car, I love the simplicity of the look and paint job. If I’m able to pull off the engine that’s the way I will model the car. Makes for a easy build after the engine and exhaust as all I'll need after the Tamiya kit is Calvin's engine cover.
From the history I’ve found of the car, the M25 was penned by John Barnard as the F5000 version of the M23. The factory decided not to pursue it. It was first sold and converted to a F1 car. Later resold and converted back to a F5000 car as I want to model it. The latest that I’ve heard is that it was sold once again and converted back to a F1 car.

Paul Erlendson

[oldphotos]

More on Hexagon Racing
Shellsport G8 Championship round European Formula 5000 series

Snetterton, 28 Mar 1976

1 Damien Magee (F5000) 3.4-litre March 75A [1] - Ford GAA V6
#3 Hexagon of Highgate 40

Brief history or Hexagon Classics
Hexagon has been selling classic and sports cars for nearly 50 years and its latest venture, HEXAGON CLASSICS, represents a return to a market in which it has significant unmatched experience.

Started in 1963 by chairman Paul Michaels, Hexagon is now one of the largest and most established BMW dealerships in the UK. However, exotic road and race cars have always been a passion for Hexagon.

In the early Seventies, Hexagon increased its commitment to older, classic cars and opened a new classic car restoration department at Highgate. With the dealership's continued success in London, it then established HEXAGON RACING and raced D-Type Jaguars and Formula 5000. In 1972 Hexagon Racing ventured into Formula One with driver John Watson. John finished 4th in Austria and finished with six points in the team's only F1 season - and probably on the equivalent of 10% of the catering budget of the current F1 newcomers!

Other successful Hexagon drivers include Richard Atwood, Bob Evans, Derek Bell, Brian Henton, Carlos Pace and Gerry Marshall, who won the last ever race at Crystal Palace in 1972.

Over the years, Hexagon has traded just about every type of Porsche, Jaguar, Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Rolls-Royce, Bugatti, Alfa Romeo and Bentley - plus numerous truly exotic models such as the Aston Martin DB4 Zagato, DB3S Coupé and the Ogle-designed Aston Martin DBS V8.

Today, Paul together with Jonathan Kaiser who runs the sales operation of HEXAGON CLASSICS, have over 75 years experience in selling the finest classic road and race cars ever. They and their sales teams have supplied cars to customers all over the world and their combined expertise and unrivalled contacts mean that if the car you want is not actually in stock, they can source and supply it for you. Finance can also be arranged.

With this level of experience and a strong resource base underpinning the business, you can be sure that dealing with Hexagon Classics is a straightforward and enjoyable process. Due to strong sales activity, we urgently require exceptional cars, similar to those we sell. We are also happy to consider modern cars in part exchange for cars we hold in stock.

Some of the interesting cars Hexagon has traded over the years, including a few historic race cars, are shown in the gallery opposite. Of course, some of the cars we now call historic weren't 'historic' then - they were just racing cars!

Oldphotos

[Patrick]

Yes Paul I do, but as Emmo's M23 only. I want to have the Revson M23(once I fix the front suspension ride height!) next to Emmo's car. F1 comes first then F5000! You know I'm a purist that way!

Patrick

[Calvin]

Thanks Walt for the info......Wow! I might start a thread on what is what for sponsors....there is a lot old sponsors that I wished I knew what the heck they were.....especially ones like Hexagon! ....it's one of those sponsors you just can't GOOGLE! as I would just get a bunch of shapes! LOL

[davidm2]

Patrick,
The Budget/Unipart M23 that raced down here had a 4.4 litre Leyland V8 that traces its ancestry back to the aluminium Buick via Rover in the UK. The SB Chevy is a very different beast. I am at the drawing stage of a scratchbuilt 4.4 and plan to do both versions so yell if you need anything.
Regards,
David

[Patrick]

Ok!

Patrick

[Patrick]

Paul,
I have it on good authority that Lindberg produced a 1/20 Camaro with a 305 CID. That might help you!
Patrick

[pje]

Thanks Patrick, that’s what I wondered about in my original post. I’ll keep that in mind. I’ve decided to wait a little while on this project and see what Tim Weber at TDR Innovations comes up with. I just talked with him about needing a 1/20th scale small block Chevy. They are very busy with other projects right now but this summer hope to start downsizing their engines to smaller scales.
Notice their 1/12th scale Buick engine. How close is that to what you need for your build?

sites.google.com/site/tdrhtmllearn/home/engine-shop

Paul Erlendson

[F5000]

Hello :

I've just found this fantastic Site and of course the F5000 section and this Thread grabbed my attention so here goes my first Post.

There is a fair amount of confusion and disinformation about the M25 but if you can read through it (as it is essentially two Threads merged into one) the M25 Thread on Autosport's TNF tells you just about most if not all about what you would want to know about it. I won't summarise it here but will comment on a couple of things mentioned above.

1:20 Chev suitable for a F5000
As far as I know the 302 Chev engine used in F5000 was part of the 4.00 inch bore "family" which included the 302, 327, and 350. So I would say that any chev car kit will a reasonably detailed engine from this "family" and year range will be a good starting point. I think when I looked into this in 1:12 I was going to use either the Revell 1968 Camaro (as it had the 302) or the Otaki/Doyusha Corvette Stingray (not the 302 but the same 'family" 350 but good luck finding one of these kits cheap!). In 1:20 as mentioned in one of the Posts above there are similar options from Monogram and MPC and those in the US would have a huge advantage here as I don't believe any of these kits were commonly available here in Australia.

Modelling the McLaren M25
As mentioned above to accurately model this you have to decide on "when" you are going to model it as it differed throughout it's "career". It was built in 1973 so bear in mind what a '73 M23 was like (suspension, nose, wings, etc) but for the reasons given in the TNF Thread didn't debut until 1976 (when in fact F5000 in the UK was replaced by G8) and then only for 2 races driven by Bob Evans. By the way too the comments about the front wings being angled back in those photos I'm not convinced of as from memory the left front wing was bent when Evan's tangled with someone and if you look closely as the photo you can see that it's the left front wing angled back and not the right one. Reference to the Race Report of the time may reveal the truth however if not then like Murray Walker I'm completely mistaken! Note well too the explanation of the colour given in the TNF Thread that it was not "McLaren" orange! After 1976 it was converted to a F1 and "upgraded" to the equivalent of a 1977 F1 M23 as backup (and sometimes not backup but first choice) to de Villota's existing F1 M23. Note that as mentioned in the Thread the "modern" conversion back to it's original F5000 form did not reverse the F1 "upgrades" and replacement parts like the high airbox are M23 not original M25. So lots of fun there sorting out "when" to model it.

John McCormack's M23 (IMC) Leyland
As mentioned above the Budget/Unipart M23 was an ex F1 M23 (M23/2 in fact) powered by a Leyland engine based on the 4.4 litre engine in the Leyland P76 (which had it's heritage as mentioned in the Post above). However in F5000 use it was bored out to just under 5 litres and in it's later life briefly had "after market" heads developed by Irving McCormack Comalco (IMC). And yes the Irving is Phil Irving of Repco fame. What I didn't know was when McCormack took it over to the US to run in the single seat Can Am they reduced it to under 4 litres as under 4 litres enabled them to run at a lower weight to the 5 litre cars. As you can read in the relevant TNF Thread it was bought back by McLaren International (mainly because it was the "lowest" M23 chassis number available for sale at the time as M23/1 was then owned by Denny Hulme in New Zealand) and restored to it's F1 configuration which was made easy by the fact that McCormack's men had ensured that that would be the case when they converted it for F5000.

Anyway enough from me and I look forward to visiting this Site often now that I know of it!

[pje]

It felt a little like Christmas yesterday!



Tim Floyd at TDR Innovations finally had a break in his busy schedule to downsize his small block Chevy. Also scaled a manifold that I’ll modify, smooth valve covers, oil pan and the closest bell housing that he had. At present he’s working on an exhaust system kit. This will work like the real thing. Straight tubes and curves in various angles that can be built up as the modeler needs.
As you can see I mocked up the engine pieces with a little Blue Tack just to see what it will look like. I’ve placed it behind the chassis from my trans kit for the 1973 M23 as I haven’t started any building at this time. Just wanted to show everyone that I am making a little progress on this one. At least in the needed major components.







Paul Erlendson

[Gary Davis]

Now this is going to be very cool! You got me looking to get a few of these engines from Tim. I have one M23 in 1/20 scale and I really would like to do one in that scale. I also had a brain storm on doing one in 1/12th scale too. But....where in the world would I display it...I'm really looking forward to seeing this come together Paul.

[Art Laski]

Love this project, Paul!

[Patrick]

Finally, Paul will break into the 1/20 scale with a F5000 car. I'm looking forward to your WIP Paul.
Patrick

[pje]

Finally got around to ordering exhaust parts for this project. Tim Floyd at TDR has helped out a ton and have created both headers and exhaust pipe parts. The headers aren’t a perfect replica of what was used on this car, but I think they’re close enough. Since I have two sets, I might try to get them looking a little more prototypical. I’m not so sure how user friendly the pipe parts will be and I’m thinking of going the solder route. The pipes are 0.10” or 2.5mm in diameter. Anyone have suggestions on using solder? Any type better than another? Sources? I’m having a hard time finding the right diameter.

Paul Erlendson

[Patrick]

Paul I just look for a solder that looks to be the "right size".

Patrick