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Post by stonecold44 on Aug 20, 2008 12:13:49 GMT -5
Does anyone (Jordan  ) have good reference photos for Emmo's 1988 M@r1b0r0 March? I'm specifically looking for the markings on the rear wing plates. |
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Post by indy on Aug 20, 2008 12:32:13 GMT -5
hmmmm, I think I might be able to help ....but shoot me an email Friday if I've forgotten to post something by then... So when we going to see that Mears WIP on here??? Jordan |
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Post by stonecold44 on Aug 20, 2008 13:22:34 GMT -5
I sense a little man-love for a certain former Penske pilot. That's cool since I think he was/is a great role model for anyone that follows racing. Too bad he retired so young. I had his numerology down and had him pegged for a 5th Indy win in 1993. It went like this: He won his 1st in 1979 and his 2nd in 1984, 5 years later. He won his 3rd in 1988, 4 years after his 2nd. He won his 4th in 1991, 3 years after his 3rd. Getting the picture now? So it stands to reason that he would have won in 1993, 2 years after his 4th win. 1993 which as we all know, was won by a Penske driver, Emerson Fittipaldi.
I feel lucky enough to say that I saw Rick win twice, 1988 and 1991. I first went to an Indy 500 in 1988 and what a treat that was. Being a Mario fan (save your boos people) I thought he had a great chance to win since all month the speed duel was between him and Rick. Mario's car had gearbox problems and Rick's was handling like, well a Rick-shaw. Sullivan dominated the first half of the race, putting Rick a lap down. By the time Danny crashed, Rick had his car sorted out and was just flying.
One of my favorite stories of that race was when Al Unser Sr and Rick ran over a rabbit that wandered onto the track just past turn 2. ABC's coverage caught the demise of said rabbit. Good stuff.
Getting back to your question, I'll post pics as soon as I finish, hopefully in the next few days. My only snag is the decals. The small number 8s for the rear wing plates weren't part of the original set from Indycals. Michael is supposed to be sending them soon. By the way, do you have pics of that car too? DOH! Stupid question on my part. I'm sure you do.
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Post by indy on Aug 20, 2008 17:28:23 GMT -5
I sense a little man-love for a certain former Penske pilot. That's cool since I think he was/is a great role model for anyone that follows racing. Too bad he retired so young. I had his numerology down and had him pegged for a 5th Indy win in 1993. It went like this: He won his 1st in 1979 and his 2nd in 1984, 5 years later. He won his 3rd in 1988, 4 years after his 2nd. He won his 4th in 1991, 3 years after his 3rd. Getting the picture now? So it stands to reason that he would have won in 1993, 2 years after his 4th win. 1993 which as we all know, was won by a Penske driver, Emerson Fittipaldi. OMG!!!! LOL that is hillarious!!! I promise that in the fall of 1992, I had this same thing pegged. I figured that he'd win his 5th in '93 in car #2 and his 6th in '94 in car #1. I'd done the same thing as you on wins - 5 year gap (79 to 84), 4 year gap (84 to 88), 3 year gap (88 to 91), and so I figured a 2 year gap (91 to 93) then a 1 year gap (93 to 94). I also looked at his car number: he won in '79 with #9, in '84 with #6, in '88 with #5, and in '91 with #3. The pattern was a decending number alternated with 1 which was 3,1,2... so I worked it out to 3,1,2,1,1. That meant his 5th win would be in #2 and his 6th win would be in #1. I was SOOOOOOO broken hearted he retired and thanks to Auto Racing Digest (aweful little rag) I read that he was coming back in '93..... only to be heart broken again. Anyway, so 1993 comes around - Scott Goodyear is in the #2 and I think "Mears could have gotten that number" then the 500 is run and just when you think the all powerful Ford cars cannot get beat - there's Emmo in a classic late charge. I have a few articles that called it a "Rick Mears-like drive" - no lie! So, I felt justified in my 1993 prediction. So, 1994 comes around - Nigel Mansell is in the #1 because he won the championship. Now, winning the '93 PPG Cup would have been difficult for sure but Nige won on the strength of his oval track domination which Mears coulda pulled out a better season even with the Chevy C powerplant. Then the 500, much like '91, Emmo runs head and shoulders above the field before failing. Al Jr. steady drive to the win - again called hailed by the press as "Rick Mears-like." So, Rick Mears retires the third four time Indy 500 Champ which will never change.... but I had him pegged for 6! Also interesting is that Team Penske won the first five Indy 500 they qualified for after Mears retired (DNQ in '95 and did not show '96-'00). All Mears? Certainly not! But I think he's an excellent drivers coach and important part of a very talented team. Getting back to your question, I'll post pics as soon as I finish, hopefully in the next few days. My only snag is the decals. The small number 8s for the rear wing plates weren't part of the original set from Indycals. Michael is supposed to be sending them soon. By the way, do you have pics of that car too? DOH! Stupid question on my part. I'm sure you do. I'll have to ask Mike about those, too. I have 2 sets of those same decals for future builds of Rick's '86 and '87 cars.  Just got my '87 Indy 500 Hungness review book in the mail just this week so I'll have some good stuff for you, I am sure. Now, I just need to get a copy of Rick's new book that just came out ;D IIRC Gordon Kirby wrote it. What I really need to do is whip up a website for RickMears.com (which I own - yes I'm *that* Mears crazy - but it's just a parking page at the moment) so my hope is that if it is a real site then I can get free stuff from vendors to review - there is this book and the '84 Winner is supposed to be coming out in diecast soon.... mainly it would be a place for RM fans and you can bet that I'll have a section for Mears models! ;D Jordan |
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Post by stonecold44 on Aug 20, 2008 23:14:49 GMT -5
You took my numerology to another level. And I thought I was being really clever, figuring out Mears' 5th win. I'm too stupid to figure out that pattern for car numbers but I trust you to be correct.
You must have a good source for those Hungness books. I have a few of them but not for the late 1980s. I need the detailed photos of Mears' cars in 1986 and 1987, so thanks in advance for posting the pics.
The reason I wanted the 1988 Emmo pics was because I think his car from that race can be made from the Kraco March kit using the engine (his March was matched to a Chevy) and rear wing from the Kmart Lola kit. A little modification for the popoff valve opening and the usual decals that the Patrick team used, and I'm in business. I prefer to do it that way rather than using the Monogram Valvoline kit. I HATE those things.
Any other suggestions you might have for that car is welcome. I have to figure the nose section decals for the PC18 from Speedway Graphics would have to be shrunk slightly since the March nose was a lot narrower.
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Post by indy on Aug 21, 2008 23:08:31 GMT -5
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Post by stonecold44 on Aug 21, 2008 23:27:40 GMT -5
This is so awesome. Thanks for the pics.
Those pictures are such a huge help. On the car I am working on, the Pennzoil #8, it looks like I'll have to get the Computervision and J Williams decals from a different set, probably from the set that came with the kit. Also, unless the Penske team painted the rear wing for the race, I should have painted it white. Indycals has a Holset decal, I assume for the rear wing on the '87 car or in front of the rear wheels on the '86.
As far as the M@r1b0r0 cars go, I never thought about how easy it would be to convert the Kraco kit to the one Emmo drove in 1988. The graphics are similar, with only minor changes needed. The rear cowling needs those winglets clipped off and as I said earlier, the engine and rear wing can come from the Kmart kit. Fortunately, I have plenty of those so this should be fun.
Can you check your books to see what graphics are on the front and rear wings of the 1988 M@r1b0r0 car?
Any other suggestions?
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Post by indy on Aug 22, 2008 0:01:40 GMT -5
Computervision and J Williams Cars can be gotten from the 86C kit or the PC-17 but the Computervision logo is missing on both sheets. I went and found some race video from '87 and the rear wing was yellow on race day. Good catch, I guess they used a rear wing from Danny's team!? Interesting how the engine cover is greatly different between '86 and '87 even though they are both March 86C's!
Looks like both Emmo cars had Goodyear on the front wings and M@r1b0r0 on the rear wing. I'd have to study the kits to get an idea of the mods needed but it sounds like you have a good handle on all of this!
Jordan
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Post by stonecold44 on Aug 22, 2008 14:32:56 GMT -5
Computervision and J Williams Cars can be gotten from the 86C kit or the PC-17 but the Computervision logo is missing on both sheets. I went and found some race video from '87 and the rear wing was yellow on race day. Good catch, I guess they used a rear wing from Danny's team!? Interesting how the engine cover is greatly different between '86 and '87 even though they are both March 86C's!Jordan I noticed the difference in the engine covers also. Must be because the 1987 used the new Chevy engine which was quite a bit shorter in height than the old Cosworth. Sorry, but I ain't about to do a major overhaul on the engine cover for my model. I'm just not that good at that aspect of building. A thought did hit me though. In addition to being a stronger engine, the Chevy also allowed for better aerodynamics. I'm not sure how much that added to the overall horsepower and such, but was there a weight minimum that the engines had to adhere to? Obviously there is a correlation of weight and horsepower as we've seen lately with the Danica bodyweight argument. Over the next few years engines that popped up were the Judd, Porsche, Alfa-Romeo, Buick (many variations), Ford XB, and the infamous Mercedes. I'm sure I missed a few but you get the idea. The weights and configuration of any new engine had to be a factor when a team selected an engine for the chassis they were running. |
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Post by indy on Aug 22, 2008 17:15:40 GMT -5
Was there a minimum engine weight rule? I don't recall a minimum weight rule for engines in CART....
Remember Honda's first year in 1994? Nightmarish to say the least - they ran a CAST IRON block their whole first year because that's what they thought they needed. They didn't listen to Rahal so Rahal bolted to M-B after '94 only have Honda go to the aluminum block the next year. Low and behold when did Honda almost win Indy and when did it get it's first win? 1995!
I will probably have to sacrifice a Chevy kit to try a March 86C/Chevy... just too tempting to pass up... lol
Jordan
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Post by stonecold44 on Aug 22, 2008 20:52:26 GMT -5
Was there a minimum engine weight rule? I don't recall a minimum weight rule for engines in CART.... Remember Honda's first year in 1994? Nightmarish to say the least - they ran a CAST IRON block their whole first year because that's what they thought they needed. They didn't listen to Rahal so Rahal bolted to M-B after '94 only have Honda go to the aluminum block the next year. Low and behold when did Honda almost win Indy and when did it get it's first win? 1995! I will probably have to sacrifice a Chevy kit to try a March 86C/Chevy... just too tempting to pass up... lolJordan Does that mean you will do a re-shaping of the engine cover? If so, take many pictures of that process. I'd like to see how it's done. Getting back to the Pennzoil car, wait until you see the rear wingplates I had to make. They're so big that I think I got the dimensions wrong. On the other hand, they look cool with so much surface. They almost look like a messed up home plate on the playground. So here are a couple of pics so you can have a good look at what you helped me with. Maybe a good laugh too when you see the rear wing. ;D Notice the absence of a number on the rear wing. Still waiting for the little critters. I still need to put on the windscreen and mirrors which I painted yellow but should really be black. This was kind of a fun build that came out OK, at least for me. The decals were good although I had a problem getting the striping on the right side to "curve" from back to front. That's more me than the decals. I also used the Monroe decals from the kit set for the little winglets on the engine cover. They were bigger and easier to read than the Indycals. Overall though, I love using the Indycals decals. Much stronger than any I've ever used, certainly moreso than the ones from the kit. I guess the Pennzoil #4 from 1986 is not far behind.   |
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Post by indy on Aug 23, 2008 15:01:56 GMT -5
Hard to find good references of the '87 endplates but here's what I could get  I think you did good with the end plates - these 80s end plates were OUT OF CONTROL ;D lol but that's the way they did it so that's the way we should model it. Nice job! Not sure how to attack the custom engine cover!?!? I'd initially thought about scratch building it but maybe I could cut up some other kit's cover and put it together with part of the 86C's to make something nice. Jordan |
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Post by stonecold44 on Aug 23, 2008 16:46:26 GMT -5
Thanks. I did the end plates like I used to do some projects back in grade school; I drew an image of the plate on a notecard and trimmed it until I got the right shape, then I traced it onto sheet styrene. I made a template piece so I can do another set for the #4 car, and hopefully the other Penske March, the Miller American. Doing stuff like that is kind of fun, but I still don't know how you guys do those major scratchbuilds or something like turning a PC-17 into a PC-18. That's the artistry of model building.
After that last post I have a new question: how do you get pictures from a video? That is unbelievable. Those pictures showed me where I need to add a couple of decals from my leftovers; the Boss decal just behind the windscreen and the "MEARS" behind the drivers head. If you notice, the striping from the qualification photo goes through the top part of the 8. In the race pictures from video, they go right through the middle. You know what that means when I notice stuff like that? I'M TURNING INTO A JORDAN!! Seriously, for a second there I thought I did the whole thing wrong but then I looked back at the qualification photo and was very relieved. We can really go crazy trying to get the decals and modifications perfect, can't we?
A thought on the engine cover modification: Can you just cut the top part off from just behind where the popoff valve goes, trim down some styrene and graft it into the cover? Use a little putty to smooth the lines out and there you go.
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Post by indy on Aug 23, 2008 17:04:58 GMT -5
I'M TURNING INTO A JORDAN!! ;D lol ;D you're welcome! Jordan |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2008 14:20:36 GMT -5
Quick question: is there decals available for the 1988 M@r1b0r0 car? I just picked up a March and would like to make this car. Also, what Lola's had the Cosworth engine in 88? I realize most cars were Cosworths then, but any notable cars? Thanks guys!
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Post by stonecold44 on Oct 12, 2008 23:16:12 GMT -5
Quick question: is there decals available for the 1988 M@r1b0r0 car? I just picked up a March and would like to make this car. Also, what Lola's had the Cosworth engine in 88? I realize most cars were Cosworths then, but any notable cars? Thanks guys! I'm using a set of decals from Speedway Graphics that, unfortunately is now out of print. The decals are actually from Emmo's 1989 winning car, and while the graphics aren't all exactly what is needed, most of them are accurate. The small #20s located just behind the roll bar are not on the set and I can't tell what is on the wing plates other than the Mobil pegasus. As far as a kit goes, you can use the Monogram Al Unser Jr Valvoline car and clip off the little winglets on the cowling in front of the rear wheels. OR........... You can do what I'm doing and use the Kraco or Domino's March kit and use the engine and rear wing from the K-Mart Lola kit. Doing that will require modifying the back of the engine cover so the suspension fits. Take a look at the pictures Jordan posted above and you'll see where the modifications are needed. I used a pair of bone scissors, the kind chefs use, to trim what I needed to for a good fit. Doing that hasn't been a problem. My painting skills really suck when it comes to masking lines. And even with the best tips from guys on this board, they still suck. The white part came out good, the red came out good but there are parts that need to be touched up in white and I can't tell you how frustrated I am with myself. Otherwise I think it's a great looking car. Thank God hockey season has started and I can spread my attention out. |
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Post by stonecold44 on Oct 12, 2008 23:27:12 GMT -5
Quick question: is there decals available for the 1988 M@r1b0r0 car? I just picked up a March and would like to make this car. Also, what Lola's had the Cosworth engine in 88? I realize most cars were Cosworths then, but any notable cars? Thanks guys! And just to clarify, the 1988 M@r1b0r0 March had a Chevy engine in it, so that is why I used the engine/wing from the K-Mart car. But to answer your question, I assume you are talking about the model kits, the AMT Lolas that had a Cosworth were the Provimi and the Amway kits. I'm drawing a blank on any others including the Monograms. |
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russd
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Post by russd on Oct 13, 2008 13:44:11 GMT -5
You can also use a Lola Chassis. Emmo used the March for only a portion of the season (as did most every one else who started with a March that year). Apparently the March was not very competitive that year and many of the teams switched to the Lola chassis. Emmo did use the March until Indy and then switched to the Lola after that race.
The Domino's car that was driven at Indy was a Lola. Some of the pictures on the AMT Domino's March kit are actually of the Lola and not the March.
RussD
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Post by stonecold44 on Oct 30, 2008 22:31:26 GMT -5
OK, here is my finished work, the 1988 Patrick Racing M@r1b0r0 March. Essentially all I did was take the chassis from the Kraco March kit and the engine and rear wing combo from the KMart Lola kit and modified the rear cowling to fit the suspension and cut the little winglets that you'd find on most of the 1988 March cars. The decals are as close to accurate as I had on hand and I think they look pretty decent. The paint, on the other hand, was just short of desirable. I am getting better at these multi-color schemes but I had to do some touch-ups on this one. My next M@r1b0r0 car will be much better, I hope. I was so frustrated I felt like just dipping this car in a big bowl of Future like a Krispy Kreme donut.   |
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Post by sandysixtysfan on Oct 31, 2008 11:32:07 GMT -5
Darn good job! The thought of painting those day-glo stripes and getting them straight and even like yours scares the hell out of me!
Sandy
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russd
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Post by russd on Oct 31, 2008 11:57:16 GMT -5
That looks great. Those M@r1b0r0 strips can be a hassle. Especially around the back end of the car where you have some pretty complex shapes to deal with. Looks like you did an excellent job
RussD
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Post by mrindy77 on Oct 31, 2008 13:19:54 GMT -5
Nice graphics! |
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Post by stonecold44 on Oct 31, 2008 19:21:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the props guys. The decals were made by a friend and I'm probably going to owe him my first born for the nice job he did on them. I am sworn to secrecy on who it is because of the M@r1b0r0 legality thing.
The red areas were just masked over Tamiya Pure White with Tamiya tape, suggested by Jordan (who else? That guy must be a genius) and sprayed with TS 49 Bright Red. There are so many great looking M@r1b0r0 cars and each can be painted with different shades of red. I'm looking for something to paint the Day-Glo Red or Orange for the 1991 Mears car. The Speedway Graphics decal set had a huge swatch of the color but I'd rather match the color with paint. Any ideas?
I just realized what I wrote. Good Lord, any mention of a Mears car and our favorite reference expert will hold me to account for building it ASAP. I don't have that chassis, the 1991 Penske, but I'm open to more suggestions. Otherwise I'm just going to do it on a PC-17.
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Post by indy on Nov 1, 2008 2:33:35 GMT -5
(In my best Lurch voice) "You rang?" lol
M@r1b0r0 red is really flo-red :-) in Tamiya that is TS 36. Flo-red just does not photo well - just like in a lot of pics of various STP Indycars.
PC-17 is a common body for the '91 winner - the PC-20 is three total evolutions away from the '88 winner but they are close enough for most. There is a vacuform body of the PC-20 made by Union Vac - I finally came across a copy earlier this year and paid way too much for it on eBay because I HAD to have it. Bill Jorgensen is has a PC-20 body to master and cast but Bill works at his own pace so no ETA on it yet.
Glad the Tamiya tape worked out for you - it is great stuff and I like it for the edge masking then I use the cheaper stuff to cover large areas.
Jordan
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Post by 2lapsdown on Nov 1, 2008 8:09:39 GMT -5
Jordan, how did I know you'd be the next one to respond? Isn't Lance working on a 91 winner? I thought I read that somewhere.
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Post by indy on Nov 2, 2008 0:47:31 GMT -5
IIRC Bill Jorgensen has the '84 and '91 winners in the pipeline and Lance has the PC-7 in the works. I'll have to save up b/c I will need a few of each ;D
Jordan
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Post by stonecold44 on Nov 2, 2008 16:09:48 GMT -5
IIRC Bill Jorgensen has the '84 and '91 winners in the pipeline and Lance has the PC-7 in the works. I'll have to save up b/c I will need a few of each ;D Jordan This might sound like a stupid/redundant question, but do you have a decal set for the 1984 winner? I'm pretty sure Fred Cady made a set but I'm a bit foggy on that. On the Bill Jorgensen kits, how often does he auction anything other than Eagles and Dallaras these days? It seems that's all I ever see on EBay. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 16:44:38 GMT -5
Stone...
Fred Cady did a sheet for the 1984 winner because Bill Gebard once did a vac-form of that body. You you write Fred, I'm sure he still has a few and will sell them to you.
As for Bill Jorgensen, if you contact him directly through Ebay, he'll do anything you need. He's a good guy , but ti will take a little longer.
Best to you
Russ
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Post by indy on Nov 3, 2008 11:43:48 GMT -5
Mears winners are... Year: 1979 Kit: AMT kit Decal Options: kit, Fred Cady, IndyCals Year: 1984 Kit: Bill Gebhard vacuform body, future resin body/kit from Bill Jorgensen Decal Options: Fred Cady Year: 1988 Kit: AMT kit Decal Options: kit, Fred Cady, IndyCals Year: 1991 Kit: Union Vac vacuform body, future resin body/kit from Bill Jorgensen Decal Options: Speedway Graphics, anonymous ALPS printer Hopefully, if Bill makes his '84 and '91 cars then there will be some more decal options for these two winners. Jordan |
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) have good reference photos for Emmo's 1988 M@r1b0r0 March? I'm specifically looking for the markings on the rear wing plates.
