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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2011 0:19:35 GMT -5
I thought I would post this in a new thread rather than put it in one of the others concerning Dan Wheldon. The wreck today has me rattled still and I am wondering about whether or not it is really worth it to continue to watch Indycar racing or not.
I have been a race fan most of my life since I was a kid. I was into Indycars before Nascar as I love the looks of these ground effects machines burning it up around the track since the days of Al Sr. and Rick Mears (i.e. the early 1980s). It seemed like the technology leaps were finally overcoming the safety factor, although it was kind of bloody in those early years of ground effects as the cars could put out downforce rates that would sometimes over stress the suspension, meaning if something failed, a driver was going to be in a world of hurt.
Back then, the accidents tended to be single car affairs as the cars got stretched out on the track. You had teams building better mousetraps than one another. Sure, there were off the shelf chassis to buy (Lola, March, Penske), but that still left the chance for many teams to tweak things a bit. The saying was the best team wins, usually by a lap or two at most, or a straightaway at least with the occassional last lap pass.
Today, things are bit more extreme. The trend is similar cars for a level playing field. No tweaks are allowed to the engines, the rules for aero packages mean most cars tend to look and behave about the same relative to how each individual driver operates. The saying is the governing body wants "close" racing as they seem to want the excitement of the last lap from the lead lap to the end with cars potentially passing on each lap at oval tracks where cars can go over 200 mph almost around the entire facility at tracks over 1 mile in length. As such, with everyone running the same equipment for the most part and the same motors, the pedals are buried into the floor as the machines dice and fight with one another. There is practically no margin for error there.
Interlock a wheel at over 200 mph, somebody is going to go flying. Put 34 cars on a track the size of Las Vegas and the chances of it go up compared to other races where the fields are smaller. As big as that field was, it felt like I was watching a Talledega Nascar race. But Indycars aren't stock cars. Like Nascar, they had "the big one" as things happened too fast for anyone else to react when a wreck happened. But unlike Nascar, the light weight machines going at over 200mph didn't slow down all that fast when they bounced off one another. God forbid if that accident had happened on the entry into the tri-oval on the front stretch, a lot of small carbon fibre shrapnel pieces would have potentially ended up in the stands (like Kenny Brack's 2003 crash at Texas, thankfully those seats were empty where the debris ended up).
At least at the Indy 500, the cars don't bunch up quite that much. The way the track is designed, one pretty much has to lift a bit more in the turns, than go full bore down the straights. It is a more technical track. As such, the field tends to spread out a bit more, meaning the vast majority of crashes are one and two car affairs. The Nascar ovals though seem a bit scarier by comparison. They are like miniature versions of Michigan (and Michigan had its fair share of brutal wrecks in both Indy and Nascar).
In the early 1980s, it seemed like we were hitting a limit with what equipment could do until standards got better and more standardized with downforce packages. The cars can certainly go very fast and speed is life to racing. But, I have to wonder if we are hitting an upper limit in terms of what the human body can cope with. Reaction times have to be lightning quick while car control has to be at an extreme level, and still things can happen too fast for somebody to react. I am also reminded by the cancelled Texas CART event where the drivers were complaining of dizziness as the cars were going over 230 mph around that 1.5 mile oval track (what would have happened if the race had gone on?).
As such, things seem to be at a crossroads. When it comes to intermediate oval tracks where close racing seems to be the thing, the danger factor seems to be amped up a bit too high and I worry what could happen if something doesn't change. I will say this about F1, we in the states may make jokes about it, but at least things tend to be somewhat safer except for perhaps the starts (but the speeds are slow there). Of course, F1 doesn't race on ovals either.
Who knows, perhaps the 2012 engine and chassis rules packages may make things more spread out again until somebody gets it in their head that the cars have to be bunched up like Nascar and its restrictor plates (I don't like watching those races anymore either due to an unrelated event, but safety is part of it as well). I know death is part of the equation for enjoyment of a race as you see drivers seemingly cheat death. But at the same time, you don't go intentionally sticking your head in the open mouth of an alligator either. I suppose my hope is that what happened today is unique and not a brutal prediction of the future.
Am I right to be concerned? Am I wrong? Maybe I am just getting too old. With close racing, are we missing the point of racing all together? Racing seemed to be beating the other guy in a competition as best as you could, and if you could do it with some advantage, so be it. Besides, shouldn't a 200 lap or mile race be a marathon and not a lap by lap sprint?
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Post by 2lapsdown on Oct 17, 2011 10:31:35 GMT -5
Spot on my friend. Racing is now driven by TV ratings and that means the creation of rules that enhance the chances of close racing and tight finishes. It's not so much racing as high speed exhibitions. I could not have expressed my thoughts on these issues any better than you have.
John
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Post by herk56 on Oct 17, 2011 10:46:54 GMT -5
While I agree with all your points regarding the changes in cars and racing, it's still racing, and the guys still CHOOSE to do it. It sounds callous, but ONE of the reasons racing has changed (for the worse, IMHO) is because it has been made so safe compared to earlier eras, Why do the NASCAR guys drive like they do? They have very little fear of injury, which makes them reckless. A little of this has spilled over into other series. Knowing you could get bit, seriouusly, made what earlier drivers did so amazing. Without risk at a certain level, it just becomes an amusement park bumper car ride. Again, I know it sounds unfeeling but racing is just not the same to me without some REAL risk. I raced at tracks in the 1980's with no real fire equipment on site, and sometimes even no ambulance! Would I do it again? Yes, I had a blast! I feel bad for Wheldon's family but he chose his career, potential consequences and all. He reaped the rewards and accepted the risks.
Brian
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2011 12:09:31 GMT -5
Unfortunately, true on all points. It's a part of the job that doesn't get much press but it's always there. It's still a hard thing to see though....
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Post by 2lapsdown on Oct 17, 2011 13:44:21 GMT -5
Racing is and always has been, and always will be dangerous. But for every safety feature developed, the sanctioning bodies, TV networks and promoters seem to develop events and rules that put the drivers at more risk than necessary. Only after someone is killed does the business of racing ask, "Have we gone to far?" NA$CAR is always crowing about all their safety advances, but until their cashcow Earnhardt was killed they were lagging in safety development. Yes, Dan and all the drivers accepted the risk, it's what racing drivers have always done, but just because drivers keep taking the risk it doesn't mean those risks have to keep getting bigger in the name of ratings and entertainment. I doubt the fans at Vegas or the TV viewers felt they were entertained.
John
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2011 14:21:21 GMT -5
True as well. The fact that Barnhart and other "officials" consistently blew off drivers' safety concerns over the season did not bode well in the end scheme of things. They were extremely lucky at Pocono that no one was seriously injured or killed with the "rain restart".
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Post by stuboyle on Oct 17, 2011 14:42:28 GMT -5
. . . but ONE of the reasons racing has changed (for the worse, IMHO) is because it has been made so safe compared to earlier eras, Why do the NASCAR guys drive like they do? They have very little fear of injury, which makes them reckless. A little of this has spilled over into other series. . . You hit the "nail on the head". The safer that racing becomes, the more dangerous it becomes. |
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Post by stonecold44 on Oct 17, 2011 21:41:57 GMT -5
Emotions are real raw now and while you may think you don't want to watch racing any more, but you will.
A few weeks ago, one of my favorite ex-St Louis Blues players, Pavol Demitra, along with his whole team, was killed in a tragic plane crash in Russia. As horrible as that was, I still looked forward to the new NHL season.
I know the two situations are different since Dan's death happened during his sport, but the emotions are still the same. The fact that this happened at the season finale only serves to keep this in the forefront. There is no "next race" to move on to until next year. The Paul Dana death happened early in that season and people were able to move on rather quickly.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2011 23:46:33 GMT -5
im going to respond to this. most of you probably arent going to like it- and if thats the case, i really dont care. those of you who know me, know i no longer watch racing or follow it in any form. i did not see the race. i did not see the crash. nor do i have any desire to. i once raced. my career spanned 7 years. in that time, i knew of a number of guys that were killed or crippled. the ones that died were the fortunate ones. the ones that lived out their days with someone taking care of them were some of the saddest things ive ever seen. the children and spouses left behind have (often) even sadder lives. ive known firsthand accounts of what it was like for the savages, voglers, and opperman families. i dont know why any man responsible for the lives of their children even get involved with this sport. the 'glory' is fleeting. todays hero is tomorrow a guy forgotten. very few make any money at racing. racing has little or no relevance in our world today. at one time, the 500 was a proving ground for technology. if racing were 100% safe, would any of us even watch it? i still enjoy competition where the price for a mistake is not ones life. at one time i admired racing drivers for taking these risks. now that im older and i see things differerently, the rewards dont justify the risk in any way. i think it is much more noble for one to give their life for a cause that furthers society than to die in a misguided effort to increase 'market share'.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2011 1:43:30 GMT -5
ps to the forum member selling the wheldon items on ebay- i really hope you might reconsider and cancel the listing. poor taste imo...
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Post by mbpp on Oct 18, 2011 7:24:53 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2011 11:18:22 GMT -5
i think mike makes a (another ) good point. this is a time to show some respect for the family. In reading articles about the circumstances leading up to this, its pretty clear to many that some serious misjudement has occured on the part of the IRL CEO and the IRL for even allowing this. I dont want this to become a finger pointing post but perhaps the $5 million that the IRL was putting up might have been better spent subsidizing ticket sales to the citizens of vegas that have one of the most economically depressed communities in the country right now. with high unemploymentand the potential for more to lose their jobs in coming months as well as a housing market that is destroyed, im sure buying tickets to an indy car race was on the bottom of most casual fans to do list. |
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Post by bicv8 on Oct 18, 2011 12:02:29 GMT -5
We do it because we love racing, We do it because we love the Indy 500.
We will continue to watch because we know that any one of us can be taken at any moment and Dan died doing what he loved to do. all be it far too soon but we need remember he was a racer and one hell of a great guy. We will move on and one day the shock will subside to joyful memories of Dan's smile (old and new) and his ability to race a 2.5 mile track in Indiana. I hope Susie and the boys can one day return the track and who knows maybe another Wheldon will strap in one day. As for us left behind we can take solace in the fact we have the opportunity to continue Dans memory every May, every Race, Every Day. Taken far too soon but if there is a God maybe he needed a big bright smile with a witty english accent. God speed Dan Wheldon 2005 Indycar Champion and 2005 & 2011 Indy 500 winner.
Please pull your Wheldon eBay adds
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Post by indycals on Oct 18, 2011 12:36:07 GMT -5
@bill - Indycar didn't put up $5 mil - they had an insurance policy that would have paid $5 mil - so they really didn't have that money to put elsewhere. As for your other post - if anyone doesn't like what you said, that's their problem. You've seen a side of the sport that few will ever see.
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rick
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Post by rick on Oct 18, 2011 12:45:22 GMT -5
Racing is and always has been, and always will be dangerous. But for every safety feature developed, the sanctioning bodies, TV networks and promoters seem to develop events and rules that put the drivers at more risk than necessary. Frankly John I couldn't agree with you less except for the part about racing being dangerous. As a race track promoter for the last four years and driver for the past 16 I have seen only forward progress in terms of safety not just for drivers but, pit crews, officials, and most importantly the patron that does not sign the waiver release, the grandstand fan. I personally have spent over $45,000 of my own money upgrading my facility to comply with industry standards. Standards that are set by NASCAR & INDYCAR, and then trickle down to the regional and ultimately local Saturday Night venues. The last ten years have seen the softwall, the head and neck restraint device, and tracks being reconfigured for safety. These three key safety components were driven and executed by sanctioning bodies and track promoters. I have relationships with dozens of promoters in my region and at the national level; none of which have ever invented or developed an event which would put the field of racers at risk any more so then any other event. Note that even though the Las Vegas event was a rental by IndyCar the lower echelon of seats on the front straightaway and tri-oval were not utilized in the interest of fan safety. The bottom line is that this event at Las Vegas had a terrible accident that took the life of a wonderful racer. This venue replaced the previous season ending venue that was held at Homestead where another young driver lost his life five years ago. Rick Faeth Shasta Raceway Park Petaluma Speedway |
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Post by mrindy77 on Oct 18, 2011 14:52:06 GMT -5
I do not have Wheldon items for sale on ebay, but I'd like to play the devil's advocate....at what point is it appropriate to sell those items. Obviously, the people selling them probably had no interest other than making money off of the item in the first place and secondly wouldn't this be the oppurtune time?
I abhor the idea myself as it was probably the purpose in the 'initial' investment, the autograph seekers, trinket collectors, etc. that I personally despise but if that is what they want to do it does not mean we have to buy those items.
I to have personally witnessed at live sprint car events 2 fatalities, they are permenantly etched in my brain and often times in idleness those visions of those nights are vivid and very clear. They are a constant reminder of the human fragility of life. I carry those thoughts every day. Perhaps, Bill, it is that aspect that no other sport can offer that drives some people to the venues....the modern day gladiators....and the price for a mistake in auto racing has always been epic.
Racing is relevant to those that are racing and for the fans that are still interested. It is relevant for us as modeler builders...we make money (not much) from kits and cars we produce. It is an industry that employs a fair number of people, it is relevant for them.
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Post by pbh51 on Oct 18, 2011 15:47:34 GMT -5
Except for Indy itself, I don't watch American open wheel racing any more, or NASCAR for that matter. Oval tracks are largely boring and the fact that every team basically uses the same equipment eliminates any tech geek interest.
And, oh yeah, I really cannot stand that Good ol' Boah accent that permeates NASCAR announcing crews, and the fact that they call engines "motors".
I watch Formula 1. The cars are faster, more spectacular, more advanced, the drivers more skilled, and the tracks are amazingly difficult. The teams are really individual and the rivalries are much more intense. And guess what, the racing is safer for everyone.
pbh
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Post by 2lapsdown on Oct 18, 2011 17:25:44 GMT -5
Rick I respect you and your efforts, and I applaud the safety advances made everywhere. My comment was made to point out the poor judgement shown by putting that many cars on a track of that size and configuration. When the drivers are as concerned as some quotes I've read indicate, someone in a position of authority should address those concerns. Pack racing on small tracks has always been a recipe for disaster. A different venue may have yeilded different results as the cars may have had more room to seperate. The safety features did their job, however there were just to many cars to close together. It's not just me, that's what many of the drivers were concerned about too. Years ago they talked, although briefly, about taking the IRL to Bristol. I've been to Bristol and the fact they even thought about going there shows a level of ignorance I can't fathom. I can only hope that in the very near future someone can right the series ship. Maybe it's time to get off the ovals completely, save for Indy, I don't know. All racing fatalities are tragic, this one just seems have an extra air of futility about it.
John
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Post by mjjracer on Oct 18, 2011 18:57:53 GMT -5
I think the series needs to very quickly take steps to change the way the cars run at the 1.5 & 2 mile ovals, or not go back. This has been a tragedy waiting to happen for years. They need to start testing the new car on these tracks with either less wing/more power or a Hanford like device, or something. And do so out in the public's view so it can be seen that steps are being taken.
It seems like all of the mainstream media coverage has talked about excessive speeds and the need to slow down the cars like Nascar does with the restrictor plate. But speed is not the problem, at least not the biggest problem. It's the inability of the cars to separate from each other. Personally, I think 235 on the straight and 180-190 in the turns would be just about right. Indycars are about speed, so reducing the power to slow them down to under 200 all the way around the track would be too slow (stock car like speed) plus they would still be tied together, maybe even more so. Indycars have been going over 200 for decades now. They just need to slow down in the turns. IMO
And Rick, I recently attended a sprint car show at Petaluma Speedway. Great show, well run. I had a blast and next year will be there for every sprint car show.
Finally, and above all, RIP Dan. God speed.
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Post by Calvin on Oct 19, 2011 1:08:20 GMT -5
When I look at ebay at all the Dan Wheldon stuff, its very disturbing to me how many, autograph items have the wrong number after *his* supposed autograph?
I see a lot of #98's which is correct and few #77's but I've seen #10!?!?! and a #97!?!!? signed on 2011 stuff? How could it be not fraud?
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Post by indycals on Oct 19, 2011 2:26:23 GMT -5
When I look at ebay at all the Dan Wheldon stuff, its very disturbing to me how many, autograph items have the wrong number after *his* supposed autograph? I see a lot of #98's which is correct and few #77's but I've seen #10!?!?! and a #97!?!!? signed on 2011 stuff? How could it be not fraud? Here's a good one... a photograph from this year's winner's photo shoot, signed with a #4 (selling for $99 no less). In the body of the auction it states: You will also receive a Certificate of Authenticity! The Certificate of Authenticity "COA" which you will receive is issued and designed by me, since I obtained the autograph in person. |
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Post by trevor83 on Oct 19, 2011 7:04:15 GMT -5
When I look at ebay at all the Dan Wheldon stuff, its very disturbing to me how many, autograph items have the wrong number after *his* supposed autograph? I see a lot of #98's which is correct and few #77's but I've seen #10!?!?! and a #97!?!!? signed on 2011 stuff? How could it be not fraud? Wasn't he #10 at Ganassi? I don't remember for sure and don't feel like looking it up at the moment. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 7:38:30 GMT -5
Looks like I did manage to strike a bit of a chord. I am glad that Indycar at least kept the lower seats in the stands clear, since they knew there was a potential danger. Indeed, the catch fence technology of the past has given me some concerns, which is a main reason why I don't like watching NASCAR restrictor plate events much. A couple years or so back when Carl Edwards took flight into the catch fence, I was a bit worried at what I saw with debris going into the stands, even if the car itself did not. So, I wrote an email the week after it happened to the Midwest Roadside Safety Facility at the University of Nebraska Lincoln (these guys came up with the SAFER barrier with funding assistance from NASCAR and IRL). I asked them if they had been studying the problems to try and make improvements. The reply I got floored me a bit.
I got a reply back that they had been researching it with some funding from Nascar (and they said I had a very educated grasp of the problem based on the email I sent), but when the economy started going south, Nascar pulled the funding into that research. So I'm thinking, great... A little bit of money in research into improved catch fence safety and somebody pulls the funding for THIS when other things could be scaled back? How much funding is needed to at least continue the work? How many millions would be needed to pay off lawsuits if god forbid a car did go into the catch fence and rip it up enough for a second car to go through and land in the stands or enough sheet metal (or carbon fibre) body panels get through to seriously injure or kill somebody? I emailed a couple of guys I know at motorsports media agencies to look into it further and ask Nascar why the funding had been pulled, although I don't think anything really came of that. Granted Nascar did improve the catch fencing a little and altered the cars. But, as long as they like tight pack restrictor plate racing, the possibility exists that a couple cars are going to get sent into the catch fence again unless somehow the racing gets spread out.
The thing I never have liked about safety at the big event level is it tends to be more reactive than pro-active. Now I know nothing can be done to protect everything, or everyone (and any sanctioning body would go broke if they tried). I just hope that what happened on Sunday continues to be studied for many years to come. If ANYTHING positive can come out of this, that would be it. Will I continue to watch, in reflection, probably. But it will depend on what goes on between now and opening race day 2012.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 9:59:36 GMT -5
i really like his 'chico sequin spangled vest' (that particular style screams out "Steve")but....it just wasnt in my 'color'... |
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Post by Calvin on Oct 19, 2011 10:38:05 GMT -5
When I look at ebay at all the Dan Wheldon stuff, its very disturbing to me how many, autograph items have the wrong number after *his* supposed autograph? I see a lot of #98's which is correct and few #77's but I've seen #10!?!?! and a #97!?!!? signed on 2011 stuff? How could it be not fraud? Wasn't he #10 at Ganassi? I don't remember for sure and don't feel like looking it up at the moment. Yes but why would Dan sign that on a #98 2011 Picture? But as I look at the stuff on ebay more, I also found a lot of #26's signed on more 2011 pictures.....so why in the world would Dan sign #26 so many years later? .....its Fraud. |
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