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Post by sandysixtysfan on Nov 11, 2009 12:10:40 GMT -5
Hi,
I noticed harveythedog's comment on the big scale Indy car model company Carousel 1. It looks like, as Mark Twain said, rumors of their demise are premature. Here's a portion of "The Motorsport Collector's" recent newsletter.
HTH, Sandy
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October 30, 2009 Update:
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"Some encouraging news on the status of model producer Carousel 1.The word on the street has been that the current clearance sale meant that C1 were closing their doors.
Not true, says Frank Dalton, founder and owner of Carousel 1.
I had a long telephone conversation Frank this week and though he admits that he was disappointed with the sales of his Spring 2009 releases, he intends to return to the scene in 2010 by announcing several new and exciting models after the first of the year. He hopes to use the proceeds from the current sale to finance production of projects that are ready to go.
We wish Frank the best of luck. Carousel 1 has been one of the our favorite brands here at TMC for more than a decade.
MearsMarch The current Carousel 1 sale presents some great bargains for Collectors. Their finest model, Rick Mears' 1984 Indy 500 Winning Pennzoil Z-7 Special is now $110.00 while supplies last, a full $80.00 cheaper than the issue price. We have them in stock.
Other Carousel 1 models reduced for clearance can be found HERE. I personally recommend the Dan Gurney Brands Hatch winning Eagle to those of you who bought the Spa winner but decided to pass on this one. It's a bargain at $110.00. "
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Post by SWT500 on Nov 12, 2009 8:02:51 GMT -5
I was in contact with Mr. Dalton and simply asked him. He would not confirm his company's demise but also did not deny it. Last week, the IMS gift shop manager told me there would be no more C1. You decide. I love them and hope he continues.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2009 9:45:27 GMT -5
I don't remember announcing Carousel 1's demise.
I mearly stated and I quote "It's sad that Carousel 1 may not be around much longer." Hence the word "may".
This deduction was made through many contacts in the diecast industry as well as comments from people to me personally that work directly with Carousel 1. None of these contacts directly told me that Carousel 1 was going out of business. I was only told that times were very bad and there would be no new releases in 2010.
That said, I would be more than happy if all I had been told was just talk. I for one love Carousel 1's products and there is nothing I would like more than to see them continue and prosper.
Stu
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Post by SWT500 on Nov 12, 2009 10:16:49 GMT -5
Perhaps the long term issue here regards what happens to the molds, if and when they cease operations. I'm sure we all wish Frank and his Carousel 1 venture well. While I know that 1/18 is not everyone's preferred scale, these molds would be a treasure for someone who could produce and properly market the cars in kit form.
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Post by sandysixtysfan on Nov 12, 2009 11:37:15 GMT -5
Stu, I didn't mean to imply that you were announcing C1's end. Rumors about them have been going around for sometime from many different sources. I was just passing on some info that there may be hope for C1's future,
Sandy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2009 12:26:39 GMT -5
No worries Sandy.
Let's hope C1 is around for years to come! ;D
Stu
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2009 12:29:12 GMT -5
I too, was told by the people at the clearance sale last weekend that Carousel was done. Website is still up though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2009 12:45:25 GMT -5
Firstly, let me say I think the Carousel 1 cars are fantastic, everything about them is top notch detail, fit and finish all excellent right down to the boxes. But I’d like to put my opinion why the company may of hit the buffers (I really hope not). Over production on their first batch of models. 10,000 of each model is enormous amount of units to shift which was proven in the latest fire sale as many were still available at a cut price. Some of the cars produced were not the prettiest Carousel could have chosen the Carter, Vukovich Eagles and Veith and Agabashian Kurtis Kraft’s spring to mind. Also producing cars that were unpopular like the Mears Milwaukee and McCluskey Ontario cars. All of the above I have seen sell for ridiculously low prices. Maybe if the company do survive perhaps they should have a poll on their website on which cars should be produced? I also think Carousel1 should not have become involved in producing aircraft and putting out more Corvette models as the larger diesast companies had these covered.
One other little point I would like to point out and what leaves a bitter taste is, I have a standing order with a die cast dealer for these models have paid retail price for each one many of which were advertised on the carousel web page as sold out. So it is now a bit galling to now see some of those “sold out models” selling in their fire sale for $30 to $40 less than when first released. So in the future if Carousel survive (I hope they do) please a little more honesty on edition numbers and pricing.
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Post by indy on Nov 12, 2009 17:33:46 GMT -5
My issue with the diecast market is the cost. $190 for a 1/18 car  I mean, I'm a big Rick Mears fan but I'm looking to score that one for $50-70 sometime around Christmas. These things lose so much value that they are already half of original retail on eBay. Jordan |
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Post by sandysixtysfan on Nov 12, 2009 18:14:06 GMT -5
Stu, I'm with you, I hope they make it also. I always hoped they'd do Clark and Gurney's '63 Lotus Fords. If I remember correctly, Clark's '63 Lotus was even shown in one of their early catalogs. indyroy had some good points about their car choices and the decision to produce die cast airplanes. We'll just have to wait and see how this thing plays out.
Sandy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2009 13:37:40 GMT -5
Oh dear, the updated home page on Carousel 1 site looks very ominous.
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Post by indycals on Nov 25, 2009 14:08:28 GMT -5
Oh dear, the updated home page on Carousel 1 site looks very ominous. That doesn't look good. I went to the Apollo site and they have very few left (I only came across the Mears 84 winner and the Sam Posey Eagle). When I clicked on McLaren this equally ominous message came up: "CAROUSEL 1 MCLARENS WERE MADE UNDER LICENSE. THE LICENSE HAS EXPIRED AND THE MODELS ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE." |
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Post by Calvin on Nov 25, 2009 14:26:05 GMT -5
It seems like the licensing kills model or die cast company's. It also doesn't help that american open wheel racing is just not popular enough to keep the doors open on the expensive business of Die cast.
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Post by SWT500 on Nov 25, 2009 15:23:35 GMT -5
The McLaren license expired a couple of years ago, so that is not big news. I agree with others who suggested that Mr. Dalton should have looked at other more historically significant cars. I'm sure his rationale was to produce multiple cars from the same set of molds. Perhaps he believed that was where his profit was and that collectors would buy one of everything. Like many other businesses, Mr. Dalton did not solicit information from his clients and perhaps suffers for it. I always had hopes of the NOVIs, Blue Crowns, Boyle Maserati, Lotus Fords and many others. I believe the extra expense of creating the molds would have been offset by increased sales of other, more venerated cars. Sadly, perhaps it is not to be.
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Post by professor on Nov 25, 2009 15:47:39 GMT -5
There were plans to do Novis, More Lotuses, Millers and others but everybody had to get thier piece of the licensing pie and Indy cars just don't sell that well just ask AMT, Revell, Monogram etc. You can't imagine how expensive tools are and how complicated licensing gets.
Bottom line, how many did each of us buy?
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Post by indycals on Nov 25, 2009 21:32:54 GMT -5
Is it that complicated to get licensing for an 70-80 year old car?
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Post by herk56 on Nov 25, 2009 21:53:45 GMT -5
Well, a few years ago, the Union Pacific RR came down on model railroad manufacturers, claiming the rights not only to all the smaller railroads that they had purchased, but all the railroads THOSE railroads had ever purchased or merged with. I think that gave them the rights to every railroad name ever. ALMOST ruined that hobby. This is just like the advance of technology in racing and other aspects of our lives, it can't be undone. It just gets worse.
Brian
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 14:11:59 GMT -5
Oh well all good things must come to an end. This message was sent to a die cast dealer friend of mine from a major die cast distributor.
As most of you know we offered a Carousel 1 closeout during the past week. In the initial sales sheet the cars were priced at $****and $****each. Carousel 1 contacted us today at around 12:00 noon EST and reneged on the original pricing. We have taken into consideration the situation this may place some of you in so to provide you service in this unfortunate situation, we have lowered our normal wholesale margins substantially so you will not incur a major price increase on these cars. The new pricing will be as follows. The cars that were originally priced at $****will now be $****. The cars priced at $**** will now be $****.With one exception on item# 5301 (Rick Mears ) will now be $****.This will probably be the last of the Carousel 1 car ever produced. The email we received stated that this is Carousel 1’s “GOODBYE SALE ”. Please contact us as soon as possible if you wish to change your order quantities due to the finality of this situation. This may be the last opportunity to purchase these cars. We sincerely apologize for this inconvenience. (Pricings removed)
R.I.P Caousel 1 you will be missed
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Post by indy on Dec 22, 2009 16:30:46 GMT -5
I still need a Mears March but I'm watching eBay hoping I can get one for $50ish I like I picked up his McLaren ;D They are down to $75 so they are getting closer for sure....
I am sad to hear about their troubles - though it isn't promising, I hope they can survive.
Jordan
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Post by professor on Dec 22, 2009 16:55:53 GMT -5
The real reason is sales, not enough of us bought them.
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Post by indycals on Dec 22, 2009 17:35:54 GMT -5
It's a shame but I have to say at $100+ (and as someone who prefers to build them myself), there's only two or three diecasts I would buy. One was made by ERTL - the 69 Hawk which I own, the others would be a 70 Colt and an 82 Wildcat, and they were never made. That said, I've always been amazed and impressed by Carousel's lineup and I will greatly miss them. But if I wasn't a builder I would probably have bought several.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 0:11:22 GMT -5
Well....I'm not surprised honestly. The first Watson Carousel 1 did, Foyt's 61 winner was so-so at best. The color was wrong and the tires too small for a Watson. The 64 Winner was just plain awful!!!! Quality control was not one of Carousel 1's strong points. I have a few, very few of their product. I'd rather build my models. Die casts are for lazy modelers at best....someone who wants something nice to put on the shelf. Oh well......back to the work bench!
Best to you!
Russ
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 7:37:10 GMT -5
I for one like them because I can turn them into "one of a kinds"
Yes, Carousel 1 got the colors wrong on quite a few - The 73 Johncock Wildcat is horrible. But, I take them apart, strip them and re-paint them in the correct color. Then I use the decals from Michael to get them as close to the real thing as possible.
Guess I am one of those diecast guys that isn't so lazy.
As for Carousel 1's demise. This was just posted on thier website with in the last week.
"Thank you for your patronage and support.
We'd like to say how much we appreciate all our loyal customers.
It has been a pleasure to serve you through the years.
Carousel 1 is currently resting because we are seeking new investment and preparing for a resumption of new releases in 2010. Apollo is selling our remaining inventory, both WHOLESALE and RETAIL."
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Post by herk56 on Dec 23, 2009 8:02:11 GMT -5
I gotta disagree with you on this one, Russ. Even a straight re-paint and decal job on a die-cast is a lot of work. It's just a different kind of work from plastic modeling. The guys that actually modify those metal peices have my utmost respect, for sure! I've done two die-casts so far (one was a commission job), and I much prefer plastic, but that's probably only because I've been doing plastic for so long. I'll do more in the future to get unique cars I can't get any other way. Just MHO!
Brian
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 9:02:59 GMT -5
I gotta disagree with you on this one, Russ. Even a straight re-paint and decal job on a die-cast is a lot of work. It's just a different kind of work from plastic modeling. The guys that actually modify those metal peices have my utmost respect, for sure! Oh Brian....I have to agree with you there! But......I didn't say anything about those talented few that re-do what Carousel 1 didn't get correct the first time. I feel very strongly if you are going to charge the masses over $100.00 per die cast, you should provide a superior product. Carousel 1 didn't was my point. I know the guy who did the first pattern for what Carousel 1 called the 61 Watson, which wasn't a Watson at all. The man did everything to get the car correct, Carousel then sent the pattern over to Korea and they butchered it totally so they could mass produce the "Watson" for their own use. Honest and frankly, I don't have any respect for Carousel 1's product, Oh, they got a few correct, like the 77 Coyote and the 67 SPA Gurney Eagle, but for the most part, their product leaves me a bit flat with their mistakes. I'd rather spent the money on Lance Sellers version of the 64 Watson then the abomination Carousel 1 put out anyday! Best to you! Russ |
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Post by SWT500 on Dec 23, 2009 10:59:32 GMT -5
I believe there are no wrong answers here. In the case of C1 or any model, there are always issues. Like AMT, ERTL and others, they are clearly not perfect. Case in point, consider the tremendous amount of work going into the construction of a proper "Old Calhoun" as outlined on this forum. No problem with that and that is the essence of modeling.
In that spirit, what a wonderful base the C1 is to start with. Think about it. C1 has KK, Watsons, Eagles, McLarens, Lotus and Coyotes. Yes, those can be expensive donors, but I tend to look at the long term picture.
As you know, model makers with Indycars come and go, like the mid 1990s Minichamps or recent vintage Green Light IRL cars demonstrate. In addition, waiting on something to be cast and/or delivered can be frustrating. I read comments about it all the time here. Those kits do not come cheap either. Considering all the work that goes into one, casters like Lance and Bill can't be showing a profit. How long will their love of doing it last? No one knows. I admire and respect them.
What some folks lose sight of is what would happen if today's resin casters cease. In that light, perhaps using a C1 as the basis for your model might become your only option. In the long run, I believe that could happen and Carousel 1 cars may subsequently be highly prized. Please consider the interesting quirk of human nature that compels us to want what is no longer available. Think of the countless time we deferred a purchase and suffered the consequences? There are laments about that here regularly.
My point is that it's good to consider other options. Like most debates, the vote will be far from unanimous. I say that C1 and/or 1/18 may someday be the only way to go. I for one, pray that Frank decides to somehow return with more C1 cars. Merry Christmas.
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Post by professor on Dec 23, 2009 11:32:55 GMT -5
Having been in the toy/model business for over 35 years I feel I must defend Frank at C-1. First these models are massed produced there are compromises that must be made. Timing, cost, molding concerns, production issues all affect mass produced product.
With tooling costing over 100K per car, a company must make concessions to get as much mileage out of the molds as possible even if it means the model is not 100 % correct. 99.9 % of the customers don't know or care and if you were running the company, you would do the same thing.
As for colors, in many cases you are at the mercy of what's available in Asia and again all this must be done on a schedule!
Greenlight is no different, they have cost, schedule and royalty issues that impact decisions.
Again,99.9 % of the customers don't know or care if the color is a bit off even most on this site don't care and being metal and massed produced, C-1 models will be around long after their plastic cousins are broken and deteriorating and if you consider the cost and time put into a plastic model, the C-1 cars are great bargains!
Carousel 1 did a Great job at documenting the history of this great race in a manner that was affordable and of a high quality. Thanks to Indycals many of these cars can be turned into replicas of other obscure cars.
Thanks Frank!! Well Done.
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Post by SWT500 on Dec 23, 2009 12:01:46 GMT -5
Well spoken professor.
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Post by indycals on Dec 23, 2009 12:19:13 GMT -5
Greenlight is no different, they have cost, schedule and royalty issues that impact decisions. Speaking of royalty issues. I always felt Ford really dropped the ball with their reluctance to strike an equitable deal with Carousel on the Jim Clark Lotus. Ford OWNS that car and they display it! They could have used a Carousel deal as an opportunity to sell the diecast at the Henry Ford Museum gift shop. In the end, they only made themselves look bad by not allowing their name on a diecast of a historically significant car. |
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Post by SWT500 on Dec 23, 2009 12:20:51 GMT -5
For my money, C1 is all upside. It amazes me how companies will cut off their noses to spite their corporate faces.
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I mean, I'm a big Rick Mears fan but I'm looking to score that one for $50-70 sometime around Christmas. These things lose so much value that they are already half of original retail on eBay.
