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Post by baddad5 on Feb 10, 2022 19:38:16 GMT -5
So what is the difference between a regular March 86C and a "penske" March 86C?
Anyone got pics to steer me to what I'm overlooking? Side pod Inlets/Radiator vent?
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Post by kyledehart5 on Feb 10, 2022 20:06:49 GMT -5
I'm not well versed on the issue at all, but I've never heard that Penske's cars were much modified. They were, after all, just purchased to be backup cars. Just in case the Penske chassis turned out to be dogs. Which, of course, they did. I think most of the resources initially went into the PC-15 and 16 and Roger just bought some March's to have around to cover his bases. Perks of being Roger Penske. I could be dead wrong, of course, but Al Unsers 86C sure didn't appear to be glaringly different from a normal 86C.
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Post by indy on Feb 11, 2022 9:35:49 GMT -5
I do not have my photo references on me, so hard for me to find specifics.
I found an email from Bo Koch, of Ampersand fame, and he said this:
I know Penske's 86Cs with Chevy engines had a sleeker engine cover versus the stock body build to house the Cosworth. Jim (aka illeagle10) would be the authority on that aero customization.
Jordan
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Post by kyledehart5 on Feb 11, 2022 10:02:11 GMT -5
Didn’t think about the different engines. That obviously makes sense as each configuration would have different footprint within the chassis. Make your bodywork as sleek as you can.
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Post by illeagle10 on Feb 11, 2022 13:24:14 GMT -5
I do not have my photo references on me, so hard for me to find specifics. I found an email from Bo Koch, of Ampersand fame, and he said this: I know Penske's 86Cs with Chevy engines had a sleeker engine cover versus the stock body build to house the Cosworth. Jim (aka illeagle10) would be the authority on that aero customization. Jordan Thanks for your kind words Jordan. I don't know that I can be called an authority on 86/87 March Chassis. I know that I started on a quest and I am still not finished! I have been down so many rabbit holes with this car. I know that each team's 86/87 Marches are all somewhat different. It wasn't only each team's engine, but where each team decided to hang their turbochargers and where their intakes and exhausts on their car that would determined how the rear cowling of the car would look. Also what was different was the mounting of the rear wing. Another difference between 86 Marches from 1986 to the 86 Marches in 1987 were the "kick-up" or wing foils that were just in front of the rear tire on the side pod. I am presently working on a number of Marches, well I was working on a number of Marches and life has gotten in the way a little bit. I am hoping to get back to work on these projects soon. I will list some links where you can find some of the things I am working on and what I have written about. indycarmodeling.proboards.com/thread/1720/1987-penske-march-86c-chassisindycarmodeling.proboards.com/thread/1721/1987-penske-march-engine-coversindycarmodeling.proboards.com/thread/2241/1986-march-rahal-unser-mearsindycarmodeling.proboards.com/thread/2378/kraco-michael-andretti-michigan-winnerNow looking at the model kit of the AMT 1987 Cummins March 86c, there are some issues with this kit. I believe that I had touched on some of the issues in the above articles and posts. The biggest issue is unfortunately that the kit comes with the rear suspension from the AMT 1988 March kit. I guess AMT was trying to save money and work on the dies. Michael from Indycals made a great update set for this kit, unfortunately it is unavailable at this time. The set does include the corrected rear suspension and transmission. He also includes many of the rear configurations of turbo intakes and waste gates. There is much more information that I haven't touched on, but I hope this helps. Jim |
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Post by kyledehart5 on Feb 11, 2022 14:37:38 GMT -5
Very excellent information with some great photo references there. The differences are subtle at first but the more you study the pictures the more you see. NACA duct location, cowling shapes, kick ups, even rear wing differences. Lots of similarities and lots of differences. Thanks for sharing!
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Post by baddad5 on Feb 12, 2022 0:52:43 GMT -5
Crickey!..........I'm gonna have to redo my prototypes..ugghh...
Thanks for the info and post Jim!
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Post by Chris on Feb 12, 2022 9:28:31 GMT -5
Would the March 86c Buick make 3 versions? Quite popular that year at Indy Just saying... Chris
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Post by illeagle10 on Feb 12, 2022 10:24:50 GMT -5
Would the March 86c Buick make 3 versions? Quite popular that year at Indy Just saying... Chris You are correct Chis, that makes more than three! As a matter of fact Dale Coyne ran a stock block Chevrolet in his car during 1986 and 87, in comparison to the Penske Chevrolets. You had Brayton, Chassey, Crawford and Ongais campaigning Buick engines, not all of these were the same engine builders for the Buick either! I would think there are more than a half dozen versions of 86/87 March cars! Probably more! As previously stated it all depended on what engine they were using, how they hung their turbochargers, where they ran their plumbing for the turbo intake and exhaust or waste gates. Then there are all the configurations of "kick ups" and rear wings. Also for each team the configurations could change from race to race. As with the Penskes in 1987 the cars started with the standard "kick ups" as in 1986. However, by Michigan they eliminated the "kick ups" altogether. Penske also changed the configuration on the rear wing endplates by then too. As I stated there is so many twists and turns for these cars. It all depends on which one you want to build as a model. Good reference is needed. Fortunately as stated AMT has given us a good base to work from with the AMT 1987 Cummins March 86c. The kit is not without it's issues. Michael from Indycals has helped greatly with issuing an update for this kit correcting many of these issues. I hope that Michael will re-issue the update in the near future! Fortunately I had bought a bunch of them from Michael when he first issued them. I have used four of them up already, with a number of other ideas for this model car in the future. I guess I like this car because it reminds me somewhat of the many configuration the cars went through in the late 60s to early 70s. Jim |
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Post by quattro on Feb 12, 2022 10:34:36 GMT -5
Given I have built my fair share of 86Cs in both 25th and the excellent Ampersand 1/43rds
I am finding this really insightful.
But one thing I do want to add/ask.
Are the AMT March kits deemed to be current or do AMT need to get into a 'round 2' re issue mode?
I have one in a box untouched because I simply cannot decide which version to commit to
knowing I may not find another kit so easily if at all.
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Post by illeagle10 on Feb 12, 2022 12:09:42 GMT -5
Given I have built my fair share of 86Cs in both 25th and the excellent Ampersand 1/43rds I am finding this really insightful. But one thing I do want to add/ask. Are the AMT March kits deemed to be current or do AMT need to get into a 'round 2' re issue mode? I have one in a box untouched because I simply cannot decide which version to commit to knowing I may not find another kit so easily if at all. It would be nice to see a surprise from Round 2 the present owners of the AMT and MPC molds, but I am not going to hold my breath. Jim |
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Post by kyledehart5 on Feb 12, 2022 13:24:51 GMT -5
How awesome would that be. They are going nuts with the re-issues lately but I’d be shocked if they pulled out an old Indycar. If they did I’d certainly pick a few up. Have already picked up a couple of their other re-issues to build. The molds certainly show their age but nothing terrible that can’t be remedied with a little time.
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Post by arcticwolf on Feb 12, 2022 15:14:03 GMT -5
I sold all of mine, 5 or 6 of them, sealed boxes, basically for the cost of postage. I kept a couple of the Monograms.
Sorry, you guys could have had them.
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Post by kyledehart5 on Feb 12, 2022 16:32:19 GMT -5
I sold all of mine, 5 or 6 of them, sealed boxes, basically for the cost of postage. I kept a couple of the Monograms. Sorry, you guys could have had them. Just finished my first Monogram. I’ll post it shortly. Wasn’t as clean of a build as I’d like but gives me an idea on what I need to do on the next one. Believe I have a Granatelli Lola and the March Porsche in Monogram form. And several AMTs. Having now built one AMT and one Monogram, I’m not sure I have a preference between the two. |
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Post by indycals on Feb 12, 2022 16:42:13 GMT -5
I sold all of mine, 5 or 6 of them, sealed boxes, basically for the cost of postage. I kept a couple of the Monograms. Sorry, you guys could have had them. Just finished my first Monogram. I’ll post it shortly. Wasn’t as clean of a build as I’d like but gives me an idea on what I need to do on the next one. Believe I have a Granatelli Lola and the March Porsche in Monogram form. And several AMTs. Having now built one AMT and one Monogram, I’m not sure I have a preference between the two. The AMT kits are far more accurate. |
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Post by kyledehart5 on Feb 12, 2022 17:43:34 GMT -5
Gotcha. I do look at reference photos, but I haven't looked that closely at them side by side compared to actual photos yet. The AMT kit I built was the T89 which, confusingly, had the box art of the T90. The Monogram was the Planters/Mac Tools kit originally. Seemed to fit the basic shape of Johncock's car, so I went with it.
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Post by arcticwolf on Feb 12, 2022 18:18:31 GMT -5
Just finished my first Monogram. I’ll post it shortly. Wasn’t as clean of a build as I’d like but gives me an idea on what I need to do on the next one. Believe I have a Granatelli Lola and the March Porsche in Monogram form. And several AMTs. Having now built one AMT and one Monogram, I’m not sure I have a preference between the two. The AMT kits are far more accurate. I'm sure you're right Micheal, you guys are far more tuned in to the indycars than I am. 1/25th scale and indycar in general are not really my genre, I have little interest in actually building them in that scale any more. Now if there was an indycar kit in 1/12th that's a different story!!
(I was bidding on one on e-bay a few days ago but I didn't get it  )
The sad reality is that at about to be 70 I really struggle to work on the small stuff any more, so bigger is better!
cheers mate
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Post by arcticwolf on Feb 12, 2022 18:24:06 GMT -5
Just a tidbit of info, I built the Rahal indy winner a few years back.It has an extra scoop on the back, so I used a leftover brake duct from a Ferrari T3, worked out nicely.
(Thanks to Indycals replacement printed ducts on the T3 build!)
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Post by illeagle10 on Feb 12, 2022 19:17:27 GMT -5
Just a tidbit of info, I built the Rahal indy winner a few years back.It has an extra scoop on the back, so I used a leftover brake duct from a Ferrari T3, worked out nicely. (Thanks to Indycals replacement printed ducts on the T3 build!) Actually Michael includes that very piece in his update kit for the March! I also concur with Michael that the AMT kits are far more accurate than the Monogram kits. Also the AMT kits are more in line with most Indy car kits in 1/25 scale. They are much more handier for donor parts for some of the resin cars out there. Jim |
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Post by kyledehart5 on Feb 12, 2022 19:55:02 GMT -5
So much great information just in this one thread. Makes me want to break out the one March 86 kit I have. I had planned on building it as the 87 winner but I can see I have some research ahead of me
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Post by racewrench87 on Feb 12, 2022 22:42:29 GMT -5
and don't forget the Foyt Chevy V/6 . There were some mods to the cowl around the plenum on it. I have some 86c March kits new in box. I can look for them if there is interest.
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Post by kyledehart5 on Feb 13, 2022 9:40:41 GMT -5
Yes indeed who could forget the blowtorch. George Snider would probably be glad to forgot his race days in it though. Lol
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Post by quattro on Feb 13, 2022 10:38:56 GMT -5
After the brief mentions about the Round 2 material
I went on their site and had a look at what was happening with re issues.
Like their Sci Fi stuff too.
There was a contact box. So I took two seconds to write and suggest
they get this Cummings March 86C out there again. One kit, so many options.
Is there any mileage in lobbying them through that portal en mass?
Everyone from this forum and the Indycar Modelling forum hitting them with it?
Or is it just us relative 'newbies' that are a bit wistful about missing that boat?
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Post by indy on Feb 13, 2022 11:54:27 GMT -5
Turns out the IMS Museum is selling their 86C that is a 1987 winner replica. Great time for getting references even though it is a restoration and was not a Penske or Truesports car. IIRC this is the car that blocked Mears in 1986 in and caused him to lose the lead towards the end of the race. bringatrailer.com/listing/1986-march-cosworth-86c/Jordan |
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Post by kyledehart5 on Feb 13, 2022 12:45:55 GMT -5
Turns out the IMS Museum is selling their 86C that is a 1987 winner replica. Great time for getting references even though it is a restoration and was not a Penske or Truesports car. IIRC this is the car that blocked Mears in 1986 in and caused him to lose the lead towards the end of the race. bringatrailer.com/listing/1986-march-cosworth-86c/Jordan They seem to have really been weeding out their replicas lately. And You’re not kidding about the reference photos. Awesome |
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