russd
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Post by russd on Feb 13, 2012 16:37:17 GMT -5
Thought it might be time to post some pixs of my version of the 78 winner.    Rusty |
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Post by clm1545 on Feb 13, 2012 19:55:43 GMT -5
Outstanding. Is that resin? If it is , the next question is obvious.
Take Care
Craig
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Post by lance on Feb 13, 2012 20:13:30 GMT -5
Very impressive! looking forward to seeing more .
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Post by 2lapsdown on Feb 13, 2012 20:29:53 GMT -5
Could we get a close up of that turbo layout? This looks really interesting.
John
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 13, 2012 22:34:24 GMT -5
Outstanding. Is that resin? If it is , the next question is obvious. Take Care Craig Craig, Yes that is resin. Its Bill J.'s casting. Its highly modified. I dremelled out the cockpit and added a Penske 88 interior. it slides in from below. The engine cover has been dremelled out and the back end was changed to make it correct for race day. The engine bay has been dremelled out so I can add detailed engine and suspension. I'm covered in resin dust! Rusty |
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 13, 2012 22:48:37 GMT -5
Could we get a close up of that turbo layout? This looks really interesting. John John, Yes, I will post a close up of the engine. ITS DRIVING ME CRAZY! On race day, they moved the turbo down along the left hand side of the engine. They cut away a small section of the bodywork on that side of the car to allow air to get to the intake horn. I've got it attached to the bell housing. Getting that angle right is a real nightmare. Currently, I'm trying to figure out the plumbing from the headers to the turbo blower. I think that is why the rear shocks sit behind the suspension links. There is simple no room for the turbo to be located at that position and have the shocks in the "normal" position. Comments are more than welcome. I also took liberty with that oil tank, the roll hoop, the front of the cockpit and the front suspension box. Rusty |
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 13, 2012 23:06:02 GMT -5
More pictures Engine detail (so far)  Front on shot  Rusty |
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 13, 2012 23:12:46 GMT -5
One more interesting observation. I purchased an official program for the 1978 Indy 500. In the middle of the program there is an add for First National City Travelers Checks with a drawing of the car. The only problem is ... the car that is pictured is a M23 with FNCTC markings. Since its only a drawing and not an actual picture of the car, it is debatable whether or not Jim Hall actually had a backup M23.
Rusty
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Post by harveythedog2 on Feb 14, 2012 11:17:58 GMT -5
The turbo system is weird but interesting. Can you tell me how the right hand exhaust connects to the turbo?
Stu
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Post by 2lapsdown on Feb 14, 2012 11:35:19 GMT -5
Rusty, I have Bill's conversion kit of this car. I thought it would be a fairly simple build, but you've given me a whole new perspective on it. I sure appreciate you doing all the "figgerin' out" of the turbo situation. This will help me immensely. I just hope I can duplicate your efforts. It looks great so far.
John
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 14, 2012 11:48:17 GMT -5
The turbo system is weird but interesting. Can you tell me how the right hand exhaust connects to the turbo? Stu Stu, Thats the part I'm trying to figure out. I know that both exhausts need to meet at the top of the engine/transmission spacer (bell housing?). So I was going to route the right hand bank up over the top of this area. The left hand exhaust is the real problem. It needs to bend under the turbo intake horn (the area between the left cylinder bank and the turbo unit) and travel up towards the top of the housing and meet the right hand pipe, blend at the top of the spacer and then go into the turbo. That seems like some very steep curves to me but I can't see any other way it can be done. I figured that I needed to position the turbo first and the plumbing would be obvious, but the resulting area is very limited. I wish I could talk to Jim Hall for 10 minutes. Got any suggestions? Rusty |
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Post by harveythedog2 on Feb 14, 2012 11:58:54 GMT -5
Ha! You an me both Rusty! Somewhere there has to be a picture of this set up. The restored car is not like this.
I will keep searching.
Stu
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 14, 2012 12:19:47 GMT -5
Ha! You an me both Rusty! Somewhere there has to be a picture of this set up. The restored car is not like this. I will keep searching. Stu I suspect that the car in the museum is a repainted 1979 version. I've looked every where to find a picture of this car with the engine/cockpit cover off. They just don't exist. Most of the cockpit and engine detail that I have is based on other cars (Penske PC6 , M23, ...). Just a best guess of the layout. Rusty |
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Post by harveythedog2 on Feb 14, 2012 13:02:24 GMT -5
Rusty, I think you are right that the right hand exhaust should come up and over the bell housing. The right and left hand exhaust manifolds join together and then attach to the turbo. A tube or hose should then go from the plenum to the compressor. I drew it up but it doesn't show all the crazy bends! LOL Stu [img src="http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/sbenford/Turbo.jpg" ![]() img] The restored car shows a big exhaust waste on the right side of the engine cover. The real car couldn't have had more than just a tube that exited over top of the gearbox. Stu |
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Post by macsparty on Feb 14, 2012 20:47:52 GMT -5
Ah, shoot. No wonder I was having problems. I did some sanding and grinding on both the engine and the cowling to try to get that turbo to fit, and here I had it in the wrong spot all along! This project kind of stalled, but here is where I left off. Incorrectly, apparently.  |
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Post by 2lapsdown on Feb 14, 2012 22:06:56 GMT -5
Scott, that's what I had planned until Rusty came along. We're counting on you Rusty!
John
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 14, 2012 22:08:41 GMT -5
Ah, shoot. No wonder I was having problems. I did some sanding and grinding on both the engine and the cowling to try to get that turbo to fit, and here I had it in the wrong spot all along! This project kind of stalled, but here is where I left off. Incorrectly, apparently. It actually gets worse (sorry). Because they moved the turbo to the left side of the engine it then makes the "normal" rear suspension setup impossible because the turbo now occupies the area that the upper link and the shock typically occupies. To fix that problem they turned the suspension around. The upper link and the shock are located behind the drive shafts. The lower link is unchanged. Rusty |
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Post by macsparty on Feb 15, 2012 13:46:35 GMT -5
Wow. Just goes to show my power of observation! I just looked at some photos, and I can see what you mean about how that is mounted. I never noticed that before. It does look like a hose coming down from the plenum, as it looks like a hint of the orangeish red in there maybe. But you're right, where the exhaust goes is pretty tough to tell.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2012 15:11:37 GMT -5
Any rear views from the Lola T500 motor/  or  Greetings... |
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Post by macsparty on Feb 15, 2012 15:17:29 GMT -5
Except those show the turbo mounted on top, as I incorrectly placed it. Someone said this might actually be the '79 repainted as the '78? The rear of the cowling looks wrong, too. This one is chopped off, the photos from the '78 race show it extending back farther.
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 15, 2012 19:46:13 GMT -5
Yup, that is a 79 car ... its got a pop off valve at the top of the engine cover and the shocks are back in front of the drive shafts. Good detail shots of the engine cooling lines from the radiators. I never thought that they'd run those that close to the exhaust headers just because those things get awfully hot.
Rusty
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 0:21:00 GMT -5
 ::)Yes I'm right with you,this is the '79 version,perhaps the "Penzoil" drove also by Al Unser and restored in '78 Indy winner???    and perhaps the version of Tom Bigelow Amstrong Mould 1979 CART  and also perhaps the Janet Guthrie Amstrong Mould 1979 CART  But this one is really the '78 version drove by Al Unser to the victory at the Indy 500:  Many other versions with the same base,no??... ;D ;D Greetings...
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Post by Art Laski on Feb 16, 2012 0:55:11 GMT -5
Nice work, Rusty!
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 16, 2012 9:30:50 GMT -5
But this one is really the '78 version drove by Al Unser to the victory at the Indy 500: Many other versions with the same base,no??... ;D ;D Greetings... Another way to tell the difference between the 78 and 79 chassis is the position of the fueling port (low on the left hand side of the body). The 78 car had this port closer to the front wheels while the 79 car repositioned the port farther back closer to the radiators (like the first picture above). AND... Yes, I agree that the second picture is a 78 version. I have a large picture (from the Artemis collection) that shows the car from above and it does have a very large turbo intake located on the right hand side of the car just like the second picture above. I think this is the way Hall received the car from Lola. However during the month of May, Hall moved the turbo to that weird position on the left hand side of car and that is the way it was raced on Memorial day. The Hungness Yearbook (page 158 and 159) and the DVD of the race confirm that. Rusty |
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Post by harveythedog2 on Feb 16, 2012 9:39:31 GMT -5
This is driving me a bit crazy actually. How can the exhaust waste horn have exited the right rear of the engine? The last picture shows the exhaust waste horn coming out from under the engine cover at the right rear. I don't think this photo is from Indy. If the turbo hung low on the left side and is angled to the rear, the exhaust waste must have surely exited just above the gear box and to the center of the rear wing support. Just my thoughts anyway...
Stu
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Post by SWT500 on Feb 16, 2012 10:02:34 GMT -5
That photo is NOT from Indy. I believe it's either Pocono or Ontario. And Stu, you were crazy before that. LOL!
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 16, 2012 10:03:51 GMT -5
This is driving me a bit crazy actually. How can the exhaust waste horn have exited the right rear of the engine? The last picture shows the exhaust waste horn coming out from under the engine cover at the right rear. I don't think this photo is from Indy. If the turbo hung low on the left side and is angled to the rear, the exhaust waste must have surely exited just above the gear box and to the center of the rear wing support. Just my thoughts anyway... Stu Stu, The above picture of the 78 was taken prior to 500 qualifying when the turdo (intake?) horn was on the right hand side of the car. Here is another view of that version of the car.  Sometime between the start of May and the day Unser qualified the car Jim Hall repositioned the turbo to the other side. I have no idea why but I have a theory that he was trying to avoid all those HotDog wrappers being sucked into the turbo. ;D Here is the drawing of the FNCTC M23 from the Official Program  AND for you guys building the ArcoGraphite Eagle I found this picture.  Rusty |
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Post by macsparty on Feb 16, 2012 11:14:56 GMT -5
Here is another view of that version of the car. Rusty This helps partly explain why I did what I did. This is one of the photos I relied on most heavily in my start at building this. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 11:17:46 GMT -5
Rusty, Jim hall received the T500 from Lola at the end of February 1978. Please find here the first apparence of this car at the USAC Phoenix race(March 18,1978),and Al Unser was 10th,but did not finish(out of fuel).  I think the Indy winner decoration,was effective just before the race,after the crash of Al Unser in the wall of the Coors 200 at College Station raceway,TEX in April 15. Al Unser suffered a mild concussion,and did not race the Gabriel 200 at Trenton,N.J. ,April 23.And the car was rebuilt just before the Indy 500 race,with this new decoration(a race very important to the sponsor City Corps. Greetings. |
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russd
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Post by russd on Feb 16, 2012 11:38:19 GMT -5
Bernard,
OK, that is the first time I've seen this picture. Thanks for posting it. I notice that this car does not appear to have the turbo intake on the right side. I was under the impression that the Artemis image collection was strictly cars from the Indy 500 (Mike might be able to clear this up for me) and the image of the T500 that Artemis had did have the turbo on the right side SO ... I assumed that the car was modified during the Month of May 1978 to move the turbo. It now looks like the car came from Lola with the turbo already on the left hand side and Hall repositioned it with the horn on the right hand side AFTER the 500. That would be consistent with the posting by SWT500 that the pictured car was from Pocono or Ontario. In either case the car that won the 500 did have the turbo down on the left hand side of the engine.
Rusty
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::)Yes I'm right with you,this is the '79 version,perhaps the "Penzoil" drove also by Al Unser and restored in '78 Indy winner???
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