rick
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Post by rick on Oct 18, 2011 13:16:59 GMT -5
I know this is a sensitive time with Dan's passing however I have been thinking about this issue for a long time, and this question begs to be answered. What is the future of IndyCar?
Instead of paying exhorbitant bonuses to drum up fan interest I believe that IndyCar would be much better off taking control of it's own destiny by purchasing some of the available race tracks that are for sale. Memphis Motorsports Park could have been purchased for a great deal less than $5 million. I recieved the auction paperwork that stated the minimum opening bid was only $1.4 Million for 13-year old, 3/4 mile track with 35,000 seats. Gateway International, Pikes Peak, DisneyWorld all are available. These are all suitable tracks without the high degree of banking that leads to the type of pack racing that ultimately caused Sunday's accident. Right now IndyCar is on the outs with ISC and the France Family tracks, so that leaves them with Bruton Smith who wanted nothing to do with the Las Vegas event and hence rented the track to IndyCar. IndyCar should take a page from Bruton (SMI) and France (ISC) and buy existing facilities that are suitable for their product then develop that product with effective marketing, effective undercard entertainment, such as trucks, or better yet Silver Crown, or even Midget races. NASCAR, ISC, & SMI saw opportunity and exploited it. IndyCar see's only to the tips of their own fingers and wonders gee I wonder where they are going to be able to have races next year. I'm sorry but having events in Japan and Edmonton or at airports is the same flawed business model that led to CART/ChampCars demise. Not owning it's own race tracks when there is an abundant supply at bargain basement rates is a mistake that IndyCar is making. Also make good with ISC for Gods sake. IndyCar needs to be in Chicago, Phoenix, Kansas, Richmond, and Watkins Glen.
-Rick
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Post by SWT500 on Oct 18, 2011 13:33:15 GMT -5
I like that concept, though I am not a bean counter. The smaller ovals can keep the balance between oval and road course. There is almost no valid reason to run where NASCAR runs. I believe it should be no more than 50/50 but I'm not paying the bills. I also believe the Indycars must run the road course at IMS. They would get 100K attendance, especially with a good supporting cast. Let's take NASCAR out of the Indycar equation.
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Post by Calvin on Oct 18, 2011 13:51:44 GMT -5
I dont have any smarts to say what should happen but I kinda wonder if the double file restarts will be around next year?
Also I might add is I've never been a fan of indycars running in packs, because IMO it has always looked like "helpless racing" This isn't something I started to say here in the last 2 days but I've said it for the last number of years...... The drivers are helpless out there. It just saddens me that a lot of fans out there dont realize this and you know that once the pack becomes broke apart, they will be first ones to say the racing is BORING! I totally expect the new car to have a more strung out field but I'm okay with that because I dont watch racing for the thrill of watching helpless drivers go around the track, I watch it for the strategy, the story, the creativity, and the 'color' of the sport.
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Post by gparrow on Oct 18, 2011 23:49:36 GMT -5
I've told a-lot of people ever since JJ said what he said about indycar's and ovals that in my oppinion i don't think Dan's legacy should be that his death was the death of oval indycar racing. I never met him but i just don't think thats what he would want. I believe it was somewhat irresponsible for JJ to say that especially concidering the history of his own series especially at Daytona. I know there a lot smarter people than me in Indianapolis contemplating what went wrong and thats just what should be happening. By the way it looks like Dallara is going to carry on the Wheldon legacy in some form. m.indycar.com/s/showPage.do?siteId=97224&pageId=8334442&itemUri=2f9195599d17a2bb785faa38bb7a3769/071310442311148125648357&pos=5 |
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Post by Calvin on Oct 18, 2011 23:53:56 GMT -5
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Post by stuboyle on Oct 19, 2011 8:09:42 GMT -5
Jimmie Johnson either didn't think before he spoke or just doesn't know. These cars can run safely on short ovals or flat ovals.
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Post by mrindy77 on Oct 19, 2011 9:18:41 GMT -5
Maybe a more appropriate person to comment would have been Tony Stewart, John Andretti, or Montoya.....at least their comment would have been grounded in some sense of reality.
I did not realize being strictly a taxi cab driver made him a open wheel expert.
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Post by stuboyle on Oct 19, 2011 9:32:50 GMT -5
Maybe a more appropriate person to comment would have been Tony Stewart, John Andretti, or Montoya.....at least their comment would have been grounded in some sense of reality. I did not realize being strictly a taxi cab driver made him a open wheel expert. You don't need to be an expert to know that driving on flat and/or short ovals is relatively safe. I'm just a fan who has been watching the Indycar series for over 20 years and I know that. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 9:53:32 GMT -5
is it true that randy bernards initial plan was to make the vegas track the first figure 8 event for indycars??
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Post by mrindy77 on Oct 19, 2011 12:54:48 GMT -5
Maybe a more appropriate person to comment would have been Tony Stewart, John Andretti, or Montoya.....at least their comment would have been grounded in some sense of reality. I did not realize being strictly a taxi cab driver made him a open wheel expert. You don't need to be an expert to know that driving on flat and/or short ovals is relatively safe. I'm just a fan who has been watching the Indycar series for over 20 years and I know that. I was just trying to point out that a guy that came from the ranks of Indycars would have more credance than d-bag Jimmie Johnson....also tring to infer I hate NASCRAP. |
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Post by mrindy77 on Oct 21, 2011 9:23:55 GMT -5
Jimmie Johnson either didn't think before he spoke or just doesn't know. These cars can run safely on short ovals or flat ovals. NASCRAP drivers are not programmed to think. |
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Post by indycals on Oct 21, 2011 13:42:42 GMT -5
I dont have any smarts to say what should happen but I kinda wonder if the double file restarts will be around next year? I hope not. I thought they were a bad idea from the get-go. On road courses they are a joke - at most only the first three rows are double file. At ovals, they are un-necessarily dangerous. |
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Post by stuboyle on Oct 21, 2011 14:37:55 GMT -5
If they could just build the walls higher, that would solve the problem.
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Post by indycals on Oct 21, 2011 15:10:31 GMT -5
If they could just build the walls higher, that would solve the problem. That's fine where there's no seats, but not realistic where you have paying customers expecting to see the track. |
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Post by clm1545 on Oct 21, 2011 16:48:58 GMT -5
The tracks are not the problem. The cars are the problem. The man in charge, having no background in racing, looked at the most sucessful series (NASCAR) and decided that all the fans wanted was pack racing, crashing, and lots of passing. Well he got 2 out of 3. In spec racing you don't get lots of real passing, especially on road and street tracks. So we have the "push to pass" which in reality becomes just the reverse. Most of, if not all of the drivers have no oval background, so put your foot down and steer is the way they drive. Drivers coming into Indycar are mostly F1 wanabees who bring sponsership with them. In todays world, drivers hire teams instead of the other way around. The new engines should have a lot more power than the current Honda, so speeds should increase by a lot on the ovals. The only way out of this mess that I can see is sonething like the infamous Hanford device which is in my opinion worse than the "button". I think the solution is flat bottom cars with small or no wings, but who will drive them? Everyone who could, wants to go NASCAR and who can blame them. With or without the death on Dan I fear we are going to see the end of open wheel oval racing, with a token race at Indy. At that point, I will watch one race per year and F1. My golf game should improve. As always, I am open to a friendly debate on all of this.
Take Care
Craig
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Post by herk56 on Oct 21, 2011 18:46:05 GMT -5
Reduce the wings, increase frontal area, flat bottoms, and narrower tires. Make the drivers DRIVE for crying out loud!
Brian
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Post by stuboyle on Oct 21, 2011 19:28:53 GMT -5
Reduce the wings, increase frontal area, flat bottoms, and narrower tires. Make the drivers DRIVE for crying out loud! Brian What if you just make the tire harder? Then you don't have to change them. |
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Post by 2lapsdown on Oct 21, 2011 19:32:13 GMT -5
Craig I agree with all you said except one thing. Randy inherited the cars which create pack racing. Having said that Randy also should have known this type of racing creates the potential for what happened in Vegas. Adding more cars was irresponsible. The final race of the season should have been focused on the championship battle, not a publicity stunt, which I feel it was. It seems that the spec racing that NA$CAR and Indy Car has created has caused them both to turn to what amounts to what Russ would call "Polishing a Turd." Trying to create interest in something that has become quite the opposite. The passion displayed on this forum about this subject makes me think the overwhelming emotion we feel is betrayal. They've taken something we all love and given us something we only seem to tolerate in the hope it will return to something we can love again. I guess all we can do is hope.
John
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Post by herk56 on Oct 21, 2011 19:45:48 GMT -5
Narrower tires with a few (3 or 4) compound options increases the strategies available to teams and maintains the necessity of pit stops as tires wear. Harder tires would reduce the need for pit stops and without HP reductions, would probably be too slippery to safely race on, IMHO. And before someone says pit stops are dangerous for crew members & should be minimized, I remind one and all that racing has always been dangerous and needs to remain so to a certain extent or it, at least for me, loses a lot of its appeal. I also think that the aero reductions are what is most needed as racing is almost always more interesting when braking is needed to negotiate the turns.
Brian
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Post by clm1545 on Oct 21, 2011 20:11:19 GMT -5
Craig I agree with all you said except one thing. Randy inherited the cars which create pack racing. Having said that Randy also should have known this type of racing creates the potential for what happened in Vegas. Adding more cars was irresponsible. The final race of the season should have been focused on the championship battle, not a publicity stunt, which I feel it was. It seems that the spec racing that NA$CAR and Indy Car has created has caused them both to turn to what amounts to what Russ would call "Polishing a Turd." Trying to create interest in something that has become quite the opposite. The passion displayed on this forum about this subject makes me think the overwhelming emotion we feel is betrayal. They've taken something we all love and given us something we only seem to tolerate in the hope it will return to something we can love again. I guess all we can do is hope. John I agree, the cars are not his doing, however he has done nothing to improve the situation, just the reverse, ie double file restarts. Randy has become a shill for the big team owners. When the inmates run the asylum it is almost never a good thing. I am not trying to blame RB for everything wrong with Indycar, but he has to take a share. Take Care Craig |
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Post by Calvin on Oct 21, 2011 23:00:19 GMT -5
Prolly the thing that ticks me off the most about motorsports is, unedjcated race fans!  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2011 13:39:50 GMT -5
Hello Guys, I have been watching and reading your comments since the accident and sympathize with those who had the opportunity to meet and know Dan. Racers race because that is their passion and putting their lives on the line is the chance they are willing to take in order to pursue that passion. I knopw that doesn't stop the hurting.
That Said…
What has gotten my goat this year more than ever is that the IRL seems to be slipping into the CART mentality of giving the fans a “Great Show” at the expense of traditional courses and sacrificing driver safety. When the IRL was formed all the races were held only on “oval” tracks.
I remember when CART came here to San Jose the race was billed as a “Festival of Speed” and held on a rinkie-dink street course. This year’s sprints at Texas, racing in the rain on an oval, and the free-for-all at Las Vegas all in the name of giving the Spectators a good show has got to stop. ( So I say should street courses, let’s get back to the Glen) If the races are held on proper tracks with known limits and competitive cars and drivers the fans will come.
Skinny tires and no wings/ground affects won't stop accidents (look to the 60s) but it sure would cut down on the debris after they happen. And the engineers would still find a way to make the cars run blindingly fast.
Enough of my rants, thanks for listening. Tighten your harness, clear your visors, and reset you switches.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2011 20:07:34 GMT -5
Hello Guys, I have been watching and reading your comments since the accident and sympathize with those who had the opportunity to meet and know Dan. Racers race because that is their passion and putting their lives on the line is the chance they are willing to take in order to pursue that passion. I knopw that doesn't stop the hurting. That Said… What has gotten my goat this year more than ever is that the IRL seems to be slipping into the CART mentality of giving the fans a “Great Show” at the expense of traditional courses and sacrificing driver safety. When the IRL was formed all the races were held only on “oval” tracks. I remember when CART came here to San Jose the race was billed as a “Festival of Speed” and held on a rinkie-dink street course. This year’s sprints at Texas, racing in the rain on an oval, and the free-for-all at Las Vegas all in the name of giving the Spectators a good show has got to stop. ( So I say should street courses, let’s get back to the Glen) If the races are held on proper tracks with known limits and competitive cars and drivers the fans will come. Skinny tires and no wings/ground affects won't stop accidents (look to the 60s) but it sure would cut down on the debris after they happen. And the engineers would still find a way to make the cars run blindingly fast. Enough of my rants, thanks for listening. Tighten your harness, clear your visors, and reset you switches. Don't get your "CART mentality" comment especially when CART saw the inherent danger of "pack" racing at Texas way back when. I would hope we could get rid of of the NASCRAP 1.5 ovals altogether and focus on the flat 1 mile ovals. Would love to see Michigan come back to the schedule as well as Road America. I hope the new car with three new engine packages will do what the sport needs...... separation. Spec racing IMO has dumbed down the racing for years. |
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Post by stuboyle on Oct 27, 2011 23:55:40 GMT -5
What has gotten my goat this year more than ever is that the IRL seems to be slipping into the CART mentality of giving the fans a “Great Show” at the expense of traditional courses and sacrificing driver safety. CART certainly raced on a lot of traditional circuits. It was the IRL that first ran on the non-traditional high-banked circuits. So if anything, I would say you have it backwards. How do you define a "great show"? One with a lot of attendance? |
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Post by gparrow on Oct 27, 2011 23:59:17 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2011 23:45:51 GMT -5
Interesting reading indeed. The point I come away with is that something better should be done for catch fencing. Not just for Indycar but also for NASCAR. There has to be some solution, research just needs to be funded.
As for keeping cars from getting airborne, efforts can be made to reduce that. But, get multiple cars tangled up in a wreck, be they Indycars at a high turn speed 1.5 mile oval or a pack of stock cars at Talladega, the chances of a machine going airborne go up if something happens to hit at JUST the right angle. For an Indycar, the chances of injury to the driver go up when airborne. With stock cars, even with catch fences, the chances of injury to a crowd member behind the fence go up.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2011 19:44:19 GMT -5
Good points all. It was my understanding that CART abandoned the Texas motor speedway because of the high G forces and drivers were blacking out.
[/quote]CART certainly raced on a lot of traditional circuits. It was the IRL that first ran on the non-traditional high-banked circuits. So if anything, I would say you have it backwards. How do you define a "great show"? One with a lot of attendance?[/quote]
I can't, nor would I want to, argue that CART raced on many good traditional courses however it is my opinion that in the final years the organization was so desperate for attendance and all the merch. that goes with it that they were increasingly turning to downtown street races to try and generate a fan base. Granted it was way cool to have the race just 10 blocks from home, but I would much rather have driven to Sanoma or Laguna Seca to see a good road course race.
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Post by stuboyle on Oct 31, 2011 22:34:56 GMT -5
I can't, nor would I want to, argue that CART raced on many good traditional courses however it is my opinion that in the final years the organization was so desperate for attendance and all the merch. that goes with it that they were increasingly turning to downtown street races to try and generate a fan base. Granted it was way cool to have the race just 10 blocks from home, but I would much rather have driven to Sanoma or Laguna Seca to see a good road course race. Obviously in the later years Champ Car ended-up a lot of street circuits to pay the bills. These are obviously non-traditional. Unfortunately, Indycar continues to pay the price for the split. The number of ovals suitable for Indycar has diminished over the years and the ones which remain can't draw a crowd. |
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Post by pje on Nov 2, 2011 21:10:13 GMT -5
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Post by Calvin on Nov 4, 2011 11:26:54 GMT -5
Obviously in the later years Champ Car ended-up a lot of street circuits to pay the bills. These are obviously non-traditional. Unfortunately, Indycar continues to pay the price for the split. The number of ovals suitable for Indycar has diminished over the years and the ones which remain can't draw a crowd. It looks like it. I've also have noticed a lot of fans supporting more street course, or maybe its my imagination? I dont mind Street courses, but not when they start taking over the majority of the schedule. I still think Indycar racing should be shaped around Oval racing. and plus I think Indycar should stay right here in North America. Two street circuits in Brazil and one street circuit in China is going over board IMO. How does going overseas help creative fans here at home? Why would China find interest in Indycars? |
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