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Post by indycals on Jan 9, 2013 22:46:09 GMT -5
The future is now... but with a caveat. I have been developing some 3d parts for the last couple of months and have been working with an online 3d print service. This technology WILL revolutionize the hobby, but it's a LONG way from taking the place of guys like Bill, Lance, Calvin, Rick and Kevin, if ever. Like any technology it is a tool and those who work with it, will thrive. Here's some important observations: It is NOT suitable for steady production. Unless you think $500-$3000 for a kit is reasonable (depending on size and level of detail.) It is NOT suitable for items that require a smooth finish, like bodywork. It IS suitable for generating masters for resin casting It IS suitable for drivetrain parts that can benefit from a mottled texture It IS suitable for designing parts with a level of accuracy and detail that was previously not possible, as long as a bit of roughness is OK. It IS suitable for parts that are too fragile or complex to cast in resin Right now you can 3d print to almost any material. Various types of plastic, ceramic, glass, even stainless steel. For the source I'm using material prices range from $1.40 per cubic cm for the basic plastic to $20 per cubic cm for sterling silver. Plus there are handling charges that range from $1.50 per part to $30 per part. (this is not handling as in shipping and handling, but a per-part fee on top of the material used fee). The basic plastic is virtually unusable. It has the consistency of sandstone and is more absorbent than a sponge. There is a high-detail plastic that is quite impressive but it is $2.99 per cubic CM + $5.00 per part. If you order 5 of the same part, that $5.00 fee applies to all five ordered parts for a total of $25 in handling fees. One of the things I've been working on is drivetrains for mid-70s McLarens and Eagles - Offy/gearbox/suspension/exhaust/intakes. The detail is incredible, but to sell them you'd be looking at spending between $75 and $100 just to do one car. Not a very realistic price point. But you can see what is possible in the attached pic. One area that should really benefit from this is tires - tires can now be tailored accurately to car/year needed. For most years this isn't a big deal but from 1963-72 there were new tires virtually every year and in some cases more than one type of tire per mfg. You can see some of the parts I designed here: www.shapeways.com/shops/Indycalsthe Man-in-Space capsules are available for purchase - I was very pleased with the results. The Mercury escape towers are a great example of something that would be extremely difficult to do in resin - the support braces are less than 1mm thick. keeping them integrated to the capsule helps with their integral strength. The tips of the escape rockets are very fragile - they broke off during shipping, but I did beef them up a little bit and uploaded a new file. My intent is to make this technology available to any and all Indy resin guys that want to take advantage of it. Attachments:
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Post by indycals on Jan 9, 2013 22:47:07 GMT -5
Here are the Mercury capsules for the Man In Space kit compared to the kit parts.
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Post by indycals on Jan 9, 2013 22:48:00 GMT -5
Really, here it is. Attachments:
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Post by Michael Chriss on Jan 10, 2013 0:17:55 GMT -5
Wow!
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Post by harveythedog2 on Jan 10, 2013 7:51:04 GMT -5
Amazing process Michael!
Thanks for taking the leap on this. All your time and money invested too. Very cool.
Stu
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Post by stuboyle on Jan 10, 2013 11:38:07 GMT -5
What printer are you using Micheal?
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Post by jamesharvey on Jan 10, 2013 12:32:28 GMT -5
This is just fascinating. I hope this is a help to others along with you. Thanks for exploring this and supplying all that you do.
Jim
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Post by Calvin on Jan 10, 2013 12:46:06 GMT -5
The future of the hobby......is going to get better IMO.
Thank you Michael for putting in all this hard work into this.
Hopefully someday we will be able to have easy access to purchasing aftermarket parts for all of our old indycar models.
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Post by indy on Jan 10, 2013 13:30:13 GMT -5
Fantastic work Michael. I found this site about 3 months ago and fell in love with the possibilities. However, I have not had the time to devote to learning 3D CAD. I have some 2D CAD experience from long ago - I have wondered how much more difficult the 3D modeling is!? I imagine it is difficult but can be done.
Do you mind expanding on these a little. What software did you use? How much does it cost? How hard was the learning curve? Is it vector based so parts for a 1/25 could be done up or down for guys who work in other scales? Did you start from scratch on everything or is there affordable 3D scanning available?
I like your applications of the technology. The space capsule is a perfect example. The Indy suspension work is great and the rotors being vented shows how excitingly detailed this can get. And there is daylight between the springs and shocks, right? Looks like on the suspension that you've joined the opposite side. Is this because of the per piece handling charge? I had thought about that before noticing you did it but wasn't sure if they were able to discourage ppl from doing it.
Jordan
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Post by Chris on Jan 10, 2013 14:45:09 GMT -5
First, GREAT STUFF!!! Michael.. I would like to see these items, and more become available. Raiding kits for some of these parts can be heart stopping.. I have bought a few 3D parts from Shapeways, the part is made after it is ordered, the shipping was quick and the parts themselves are very usable. Most recently I got 1/16 U-Joints and they will be used on the Ford GT40 rear suspension, they are Frost material and they came much cleaner than I had expected, I think Shapeways is getting better at what they do. The cons are, the tolerances between the yoke and J-joint area bit sloppy, I am shimming them with tubing. The u-joints need a metal cap to look right, I have something that will work perfect. The pros are, I couldnt find anything even close and would have spent months making just 2 of them, the price was very reasonable as was shipping, now that Shapeways is using an US printer. I had previously priced them, out of the Netherlands shipping was $25. on a $15. part now it $6. on the same priced part. I had complained to the owners of TDR and Shapeways saying I wont buy from them until they were printed here! and they found some one in the US shortly afterwards. So all in all I hope Michael will offer these items for sale and the product quality, price and shipping is finally coming in line. Something to look forward to !!!
MFH uses 3D printing to make the master for their product, fine tunes it and then casts it in a fine resin , that is one basic reason their parts and kits are so expensive, as the quality of materials used in 3D printing evolves, I think will start to see the prices come down and availability go up!!
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Post by indycals on Jan 10, 2013 15:29:25 GMT -5
I am currently in the process of making some of the parts available for purchase. Based on the parts I received this week, the higher quality of plastics is definitely required. I have made the 74-76 McLaren Offy/gearbox/exhaust/turbo/intakes available at a price of $49.99 - I am not making nearly as much as I would like at that price, but I'm not willing to go higher than that.
I have a 73 Eagle Offy on order and once I see that it prints fine, I will make that available - should be later this month.
The turbine and Eagle tires would be out of this world expensive to do in 3d printing so I'm looking into getting those done in resin.
Shapeways charges a file handling fee on each file, which for the material I am going with is $5.00 per file, so I'm trying to put as many parts into one file to keep costs more manageable. But I am limited by a 64MB file size (apart from the physical dimension limits, which really aren't an issue at 1/25 scale). That handling fee applies to each part ordered - so if you order 10 of the same part, there are 10 handling fees, so ordering multiples does not mitigate that fee.
3d design is a tricky process. The McLaren Offy I received was missing a couple of areas of detail - it turns out I had a hairline gap (we're talking maybe thousandths of a millimeter, if not ten thousandths, where they were not attached to the rest of the engine! And then there was a gaping hole in the gearbox at the back. Both issues have been fixed, but I had to order a new Offy for the 74 McLaren I'm restoring - that was an expensive lesson to learn;)
I'm using Rhino3d to draw everything up. I tried Blender, which is free and really cool, but it is NOT suitable for cad-type rendering. It is geared more toward animation. If anyone out there wants to get into 3d animation, check out blender.org! I played with sketch up, turbo cad and didn't care for them. For me the important thing was to find an app that 'thinks' like I do and Rhino fits the bill. And if anyone is interested I have a copy of Blender for Dummies that I'll part with at a decent price (I paid $37)
Casting the parts in resin would be ideal. The frosted detail plastic that I'm using with Shapeways is nice, but it's brittle and doesn't seem to hold paint as well as resin, and as Chris alluded to, the parts can be cleaned up and refined a bit. This will be necessary with the tires. The finished resin product will be much nicer than the much more expensive frosted detail plastic parts.
@ Jordan - my first impression was that everything in a file had to be connected - turns out that is not the case, but some of the parts still have connections just to add support to the parts. If you go to my page and click on the McLaren suspension/driveshafts you'll see an image where I have the supports highlighted in orange with a note to remove them.
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Post by indydog on Jan 10, 2013 15:41:52 GMT -5
Those look great Michael. When you figure out the pricing on the capsules, you can put down for a set.
Since there is a fee, per part, wouldn't it be possible to order one part, use it to make a mold and just cast them in resin?
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Post by Chris on Jan 10, 2013 18:21:29 GMT -5
When I first saw the Capsules , I thought "Hey if he made a few Variations those would make a really great "Chess Set" something different yet apealing to a bunch of folks!! Just Saying.... Chris  |
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Post by racerbrown on Jan 10, 2013 23:51:53 GMT -5
that is just too cool! we're fortunate that we have someone with the brainpower and the will to do something like this. thanks michael! duane |
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Post by indy on Jan 11, 2013 1:28:40 GMT -5
How much did you pay for Rhino?
Jordan
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2013 5:33:55 GMT -5
cool.......at first glance I thought they were chess pieces. maybe make a Chess Set out of old NASA and Soviet Union space capsules??? the Cold Space War Chess Set......ok, yes, I'm just kidding. |
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Post by stuboyle on Jan 11, 2013 11:02:21 GMT -5
So does Micheal have any hardware or does Shapeways produce the item for him?
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Post by Calvin on Jan 11, 2013 11:22:22 GMT -5
So does Micheal have any hardware or does Shapeways produce the item for him? Michael draws up the 3D drawing that he sends to Shapeways and they do the 3D printing process- then they mail it to Michael. More info on 3D Printing.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printingThere is also a ton of videos on you tube as well.... |
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Post by stuboyle on Jan 11, 2013 12:12:27 GMT -5
So does Micheal have any hardware or does Shapeways produce the item for him? Michael draws up the 3D drawing that he sends to Shapeways and they do the 3D printing process- then they mail it to Michael. Cool! |
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Post by mjjracer on Jan 11, 2013 12:29:34 GMT -5
How exciting is it to see the emergence of a new technology that's related directly to me. All the new technology with computers, cell phones, wireless, etc. were things adopted after it became necessary to do so. But here, we are at the beginning of something that could change our hobby (not to mention the applications beyond the hobby.) Congrats to Michael for seeing the future and jumping on board.
I have ordered some 3D printed sprint car birdcages from Dirt Modeler and anxiously await their arrival. I read on one modeling site that you can dip the parts in Pledge Future and smooth out the surface somewhat. Might also hold paint better that way. I'm gonna check that out when the parts arrive.
Thanks again Michael. Fantastic work!
MJ
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Post by indy on Jan 11, 2013 14:20:18 GMT -5
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Post by indycals on Jan 11, 2013 15:38:33 GMT -5
I came up with a rear wing solution that will allow for easy sanding while allowing for a maximum detail. Having the wing, endplates and wing separators as separate parts will make it easier to prep for painting. shpws.me/n7ie |
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Post by indycals on Jan 11, 2013 15:41:36 GMT -5
Also - the blue box with the revolving image - when you pull that up, you can move the image around to view it from any angle.
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Post by gavkiwi on Jan 11, 2013 16:26:32 GMT -5
So I have 1994 and 1995 Reynard, Penske and Lola 3D models in 3dsmax...so in theory I could send those 3d models to a 3d printer and have them 'made' to whatever scale I see fit (1/20, 1/25, 1/43) and sell them ?
Or am I nuts ?
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Post by indycals on Jan 11, 2013 17:14:28 GMT -5
So I have 1994 and 1995 Reynard, Penske and Lola 3D models in 3dsmax...so in theory I could send those 3d models to a 3d printer and have them 'made' to whatever scale I see fit (1/20, 1/25, 1/43) and sell them ? Or am I nuts ? In theory, sure. My understanding though is that 3d design for rendering and for 3d output is two different animals. So the files you have may not be print-ready - they need to be what they call 'water tight'. I've encountered many surprises along the way - things not showing up, holes appearing in parts, etc. There are also limits to the detail you can achieve - you need to know what material you are going to use, what it's limits are, and then design to those limits. Some materials have a minimum thickness of 1mm (pretty thick), others it's as low as 0.3mm with detail as small as 0.1mm - and that's just Shapeways - there are other more expensive services that will get you even more detail from what I understand. As for resizing, if you design something that runs right to the tolerances you will not be able to scale it down. And scaling up might result in less detail than you would like. Case in point, if I was going to do my turbine tires in 1/12 scale, I would redesign them for better detail at the larger scale. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2013 20:16:40 GMT -5
Michael:
Thanks so much for taking the plunge into this new world!
Thanks even more for sharing your knowledge and insights into 3D printing with us all.
Helps give a sense of where things are and what the near term picture looks like.
Best, Mike
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Post by professor on Jan 11, 2013 21:49:29 GMT -5
Wanted 68 Turbo Offy motor!
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Post by SteveK51 on Jan 11, 2013 23:08:00 GMT -5
Seems like there's a hi-tech solution somewhere here to produce the Indy-spec rear bumpers on the Greenlight DW12 models.
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Post by mjjracer on Jan 13, 2013 17:48:47 GMT -5
I got my parts made by Shapeways from Dirt Modeler and they are something else. Very small and delicate, more so than resin or injection molding could be. The finish is rough, maybe accurate for some types of items, like exhausts.
I tried the trick with future and dipped one of the sprues a few times. It did make it much smoother.
MJ
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Post by indycals on Jan 13, 2013 21:14:04 GMT -5
Mark, what material did you get?
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